Fighting for the right to keep dogs.

Fighting for the right to keep dogs.

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kathystone

Posts: 396

QUOTE 1/1/2012 2:42:51 PM
 Here in Missouri, there is a new law that went into effect for "breeders". Now, the humaniacs are dancing in the streets as they won a major victory against the evil "puppy mills" which by their definition is ANYONE who breeds dogs.  The space requirements for dogs kept in kennels has  been changed. If your facility was legal last year, chances are it won't be this year. The choices open to breeders is reduce the number of dogs in your care, expand your facility or go out of business. 

 The HSUS is trying to pass the same requirements for ANYONE who has an intact female dog. It is called the PUPS law. My question is, since dogs are property, how can they legally force you to dispose of your legally owned property? Not only that, but they are introducing laws to force you to keep your dog or dogs on impoervious surfaces at all times. So you cannot keep your pet dog in your back yard unless your back yard is concreted in!

 The new law in Missouri forces breeders to keep their dogs in inside/outside facilities no matter what kind of dog. When we have 3 feet of snow, our chihuahuas must be able to have unfettered access to the outdoors. Think about it. Plus mom dogs with pups must also have the same access. And when the pups go outside in the winter snow and freeze to death?

  The new requires you to feed your law only once a day. Little dogs need to be fed more often but cannot be if you follow the new law by word.  You are not able to make choices for your dog, the government will.

 Now, I agree that all dogs should be well cared for but at what point is the government going overboard to regulate ANYONE from the pet owner, to the show breeder, to the commercial breeder, who has a litter of puppies. AND! If the puppies available for purchase or adoption are not produced here, where will they come from? There are "rescue" groups bringing in dogs from other countries  such as Puerto Rico and Haiti with no thought as to what diseases they are bringing in.

  We all need to get involved or you will not be able to purchase or adopt a dog from the US.
dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 1/4/2012 3:04:25 PM

Quote kathystone:

 Here in Missouri, there is a new law that went into effect for "breeders". Now, the humaniacs are dancing in the streets as they won a major victory against the evil "puppy mills" which by their definition is ANYONE who breeds dogs.  The space requirements for dogs kept in kennels has  been changed. If your facility was legal last year, chances are it won't be this year. The choices open to breeders is reduce the number of dogs in your care, expand your facility or go out of business. 

 The HSUS is trying to pass the same requirements for ANYONE who has an intact female dog. It is called the PUPS law. My question is, since dogs are property, how can they legally force you to dispose of your legally owned property? Not only that, but they are introducing laws to force you to keep your dog or dogs on impoervious surfaces at all times. So you cannot keep your pet dog in your back yard unless your back yard is concreted in!

 The new law in Missouri forces breeders to keep their dogs in inside/outside facilities no matter what kind of dog. When we have 3 feet of snow, our chihuahuas must be able to have unfettered access to the outdoors. Think about it. Plus mom dogs with pups must also have the same access. And when the pups go outside in the winter snow and freeze to death?

  The new requires you to feed your law only once a day. Little dogs need to be fed more often but cannot be if you follow the new law by word.  You are not able to make choices for your dog, the government will.

 Now, I agree that all dogs should be well cared for but at what point is the government going overboard to regulate ANYONE from the pet owner, to the show breeder, to the commercial breeder, who has a litter of puppies. AND! If the puppies available for purchase or adoption are not produced here, where will they come from? There are "rescue" groups bringing in dogs from other countries  such as Puerto Rico and Haiti with no thought as to what diseases they are bringing in.

  We all need to get involved or you will not be able to purchase or adopt a dog from the US.
girl, you are right and you have said a mouth full. Where in heaven did we get to losing our rights to own/keep/breed dogs. Missouri is just the beginning if they have their way, none of us will even own dogs.  The HSUS/PETA/AR groups/ vegans have all gotten so much strength because we as "good" american citizens did not want to challenge the rights of those people to feel as they will, figuring it's ok, we can all have our own views and co-exist. BUT those groups certainly DO NOT believe in our rights to own & breed dogs and they will do whatever they can (illegal lobbying by a tax exempt orginaization-HSUS is not put to a halt by our legislators) to stop it.  Wayne Pacelle does not think that humans have any more right to life that an ant does....seriously....."an ant is a pig is a dog is a human" is he official thinking.  I actually think that there is a connection between their organizations and Planned Parenthood &  abortion groups who feel that humans have ruined the earth.  It is a sad thing, but will become every so much worse if we do not let people  know what is going on right under their noses and what they are ignoring in the misconception of acceptance. 
kathystone

Posts: 396

QUOTE 1/5/2012 12:09:48 AM
 There is a bill making it's way through congress right now called the PUPS bill. It will in effect force ANYONE      hwho has a litter of pups to comply wiht the USDA requirements as if they are a breeding kennel...even if they have only one dog! That means your house pet cannot ever have a litter as you do not have pre approved facilities. And forget about being a "professional" sow breeder or hobby breeder as they are going to be forced to limit the  nimber of dogs they ahve and how the dogs are kept. Thanks Wayne and friends. Say, how is that new Lear jet working for you?( There must be something wrong with me because I tried real hard to find the shelters that are funded by HSUS, or what happened to the dogs in their ads... or was that all staged to? Like the Oprah show!)
dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 1/5/2012 7:29:45 PM
the choice we have is to call our senators and legislators and urge them to vote NO! We are losing our rights because  we don't make a peep about it.....
christinastorla

Posts: 52

QUOTE 1/5/2012 7:29:51 PM
 My husband and I are hobby show breeders and we fought, testafide, this issue in the Senate at the capital in Jeff city. The last i heard was they took our advise and stopped it and gave (as we asked) USDA a Million for more inspectors. To rute out the bad ones and move away from the so called Humane Socity tide to their butts! Who is also the ones shoving all this down all of our throats, who again can't even comply with it or any other garbage rules. They are demanding we comply but they can't! We have and are ready to take this to the courts and sue! We are inspected and approved by USDA and AKC. It is unconstatutional for one set of people to be exempt and not others.
dittoditto

Posts: 2

QUOTE 1/7/2012 5:27:02 AM
Missouri has that because of all the PUPPY MILLS. There are enough unwanted dogs killed daily all over the country!  Hobby is NOT a reason to breed unwanted litters of puppies that dont have the proper testing such as OFA PRA eye clearances etc etc.  Until people get responsible for what they put on the earth they have no business putting more unwanted puppies on this earth to end up in shelters and put to death because of someones HOBBY!

if you are serioius about your dogs and taking responsiblity you will be willing to pay to breed your dog.  If you are a back yard hobby yahoo that just wants to make a litter of puppies for no real good reason and dont want to take them back and be responsible if the buyer cant keep them you have no business breeding dogs in the first place.  I am all for this !!! BAN PUPPY MILLS and back yard hobby breeders - i would love to put you in a dog shelter and have you put 15 dogs down  a day because no one wants them .  Maybe then you would change your mind.  I CANT be more happy on these bans FINALLY coming around and stopping the cost of unwanted animals dumped by stupid people .
dittoditto

Posts: 2

QUOTE 1/7/2012 5:28:53 AM
its the back yard breeders and puppy mill breeders that cause this to happen. You made your hole now fall in !
kathystone

Posts: 396

QUOTE 1/7/2012 10:07:15 AM
 Ditto, I understand your frustration and rage. However as someone who has worked for over 40 years in the animal care field and that includes holding over 250 dogs and cats a day for the tech to kill them, working as a vet for many years watching stupid pet owners who should not even have a dog much less children, drag their almost dead puppy into my clinic because they saved money by not vaccinating the puppy who is now dying from parvo and running a private rescue, I think I can speak with some reasonable certanty that thgses type of laws will lead to more suffering thatn they will stop. There wil always be a market for puppies. Just like the horse slaughter laws passed to "save" horses, the consequences of well meaning but uniformed people actually led to the horses being trucked to Mexico and Canada for slaughter instead. And what kind of humane trreatment laws do they have in Mexico, a country who promotes dog and cock fights? That will be where your puppies will be bred. That will be where your unvaccinated, disease carrying pets will come from. Is that better for the producing dogs? No. I agree that only professionals who have studied the bloodlines, tested and re tested their dogs for hereditary problems and are breeding top quality dogs shuld be allowed, if you will, to breed dogs. I cannot tell you how many times I hear people say they wanted their children to see the "miracle of birth" and wanted to invite them to the back side of the dog pound where I worked to see the tragedy of death as not one but 2 big trucks pullled up every day to take away the unwanted animals that were killed to make room.  

 Legislation is not the answer however.  A dog is like a child in that it requires training, care and love. When I watched the people who turned their dogs in as "untrainable" at the dog poiund, it broke my heart. Many of these dogs were not the problem, it was the owner. A high energy dog does not do well in an apaprtment. A big dog takes someone who will set rules at the beginning and not think it is cute when theri akita puppy grabs their leg and growls. There is a woman on this very site who has a toy poodle female and a small child advertising she wants and Akita. I sent her a note about the misatch and she replied that she will teach the dog with love and not have a problem. No, she will have a dead poodle.

 So, until we can educate the public to NOT buy on a whim, to mmake a true commitment and to follow through on that commitment, we are going to have dogs and cats killed at animal shelters, dog pounds, and vet clinics. We are going to have dogs dumped by the side of the road without thought. No, the solution is not legislating good breeders out fo buisiness or underground. The solution is to make the public responsible for their actions and that will never happen.    
katiekat33

Posts: 53

QUOTE 1/7/2012 5:02:48 PM
Kathy, Amen to your post about bad owners. People are so quick to jump on breeders as the problem, when it's unprepared owners who don't vaccinate their pets or anticipate the time that a puppy takes. They end up dumping that poor puppy in a shelter, or worse yet, along the roadside to fend for himself. Intelligence can't be legislated.

dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 1/7/2012 9:21:11 PM
making people responsible for their actions speaks to all aspects of our life....especially we need that toward our kids & our pets.  But we do have a right to own animals and many of the laws being shoved thru are NOT going to make the shelter situation better. Nor is supporting the worthless HSUS/PETA with your monthly donations going to do a damn thing for local shelters. 
christinastorla

Posts: 52

QUOTE 1/8/2012 9:22:53 AM
Diddo sound like the fools they are! Right on to the VETS. If we go out of business so does a hundred other companies at a cost of billions let alone the peoples jobs from air cargo to vets and medical companies. If you had a brain your talking about the people who have mutts! Who get knocked up by every other stray that comes along or are found on roadsides. Breeders also do not have control over the new owners. We offer free help in training, care, and if they can't keep it, we do take them back. If the Humane Society actually told the truth, they will tell you it is the individual owners who don't give shots or bring them to the vet's and are filling their kennels! Not the breeders! We breeders have checks and balances, owners don't! learn before you speek!
kathystone

Posts: 396

QUOTE 1/8/2012 3:55:31 PM
 There once was a beautiful bird who preened ietself and bragged about it's beauty to all who would here. And the people believed and worshipped the beautiful bird. The fans of the bird took out ads on TV, radio, internet and billboards. And people sent money to the bird so It could keep itself properly preened. Then one day a little boy looked at the bird. He looked hard and he said," Didn't I see that bird or a relative in our freezer just before mom cooked it for Thanksgiving?" Moral of the story: Check things out and don't believe something just because it is " Politically Correct."  
dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 1/9/2012 9:20:29 PM
But that is what they do, fed outrageous bits of info, not bothering to think or research or  refuse to go along with the patter they are fed who are not so simple that they cannot tear off the blinders.  there is a great website that is dedicated to helping inform truth and to show ways people can effect their local community animal shelters and not Wayne Pacelle's pockets.
  
dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 1/12/2012 1:29:57 PM
 www.humaneforpets.com  check them out to impact your local shelter animals
heaventree

Posts: 11

QUOTE 3/8/2012 3:39:43 PM

Quote dittoditto:

Missouri has that because of all the PUPPY MILLS. There are enough unwanted dogs killed daily all over the country!  Hobby is NOT a reason to breed unwanted litters of puppies that dont have the proper testing such as OFA PRA eye clearances etc etc.  Until people get responsible for what they put on the earth they have no business putting more unwanted puppies on this earth to end up in shelters and put to death because of someones HOBBY!

if you are serioius about your dogs and taking responsiblity you will be willing to pay to breed your dog.  If you are a back yard hobby yahoo that just wants to make a litter of puppies for no real good reason and dont want to take them back and be responsible if the buyer cant keep them you have no business breeding dogs in the first place.  I am all for this !!! BAN PUPPY MILLS and back yard hobby breeders - i would love to put you in a dog shelter and have you put 15 dogs down  a day because no one wants them .  Maybe then you would change your mind.  I CANT be more happy on these bans FINALLY coming around and stopping the cost of unwanted animals dumped by stupid people .
I do want to throw in a crux in this discussion. Before I do, I want to say that I firmly believe in only breeding healthy, well-tempered dogs and/or excellent examples of the breed. I also am against breeding animals with known genetic issues that could pass to offspring.

However, the crux is this, but first the facts.In England right now, due to all the standards and regulations, most of the breeds of dogs (including Labradors) currently have only a 10% genetic diversity. Some have less. Fifty years ago, their was a 60-80% genetic diversity. 

Most breeders (to be considered reputable by the public) are selling their dogs with only limited registration. Most are breeding or inbreeding their lines to produce "close to the breed standard" as they can possibly achieve. I know because I contacted about 40 breeders in a tri-state region searching for a good stud dog and most wouldn't relinquish breeding rights very easily and some were heavily linebred (breeding grandparents to grandchildren).

It brings me to these questions. These questions are related to purebred dogs. 
If breeders continue on this trend, only breeding dogs with proper testing/clearances, then many of the other genetic traits that dogs have but not necessarily passed to offspring are going to disappear. Once your genetic diversity reaches 5%, it won't be long before you see the breed disappear altogether. I support purebred dogs fully and the breeding of them, but some of the practices are making me question if what we are doing (for the sake of the dogs) is actually helping them.  For instance, I would not breed a dog with signs of hip dysplasia and this is the current trend for obvious reasons. However, there  is not an actual genetic link (just suspected) cause of the disorder, which may have other contributing factors known and unknown. Futhermore, recent research suggested that the number of dogs with hip dysplasia has not significantly gone down even with all the intervention. It is true that two cleared adults (hip rating of excellent) can and do produce pups with severe hip dysplasia. Most people are unaware of this and may be in for a surprise. So, since the researchers have not been able to pinpoint an actual genetic link, it leads me to think we are breeding out the diversity of the genes of all purebred breeds with these practices.

Anyone can chime in if you have more knowledge, expertise on the matter.
heaventree

Posts: 11

QUOTE 3/8/2012 4:14:58 PM
This is from a 2010 article: Hip Dysplasia Susceptibility in Dogs May be Underreported.
Basically, the article states from Penn Research that even dogs with OFA rating of "excellent" hips when mated, will still produce progeny with a 52-100 chance of being susceptible to the disorder based on the Penn Vet method.

"Despite well intentioned hip-screening programs to reduce the frequency of the disease, canine hip dysplasia continues to have a high prevalence worldwide with no studies showing a significant reduction in disease frequency using mass selection."

Penn goes on to add that the reasoning is because OFA is not stringent enough in its screening methods. However, since there had been no significant reduction in the disease, perhaps there are other causes--environmental, etc.

dsn0207

Posts: 21

QUOTE 3/8/2012 6:01:27 PM

Quote heaventree:

I do want to throw in a crux in this discussion. Before I do, I want to say that I firmly believe in only breeding healthy, well-tempered dogs and/or excellent examples of the breed. I also am against breeding animals with known genetic issues that could pass to offspring.

However, the crux is this, but first the facts.In England right now, due to all the standards and regulations, most of the breeds of dogs (including Labradors) currently have only a 10% genetic diversity. Some have less. Fifty years ago, their was a 60-80% genetic diversity. 

Most breeders (to be considered reputable by the public) are selling their dogs with only limited registration. Most are breeding or inbreeding their lines to produce "close to the breed standard" as they can possibly achieve. I know because I contacted about 40 breeders in a tri-state region searching for a good stud dog and most wouldn't relinquish breeding rights very easily and some were heavily linebred (breeding grandparents to grandchildren).

It brings me to these questions. These questions are related to purebred dogs. 
If breeders continue on this trend, only breeding dogs with proper testing/clearances, then many of the other genetic traits that dogs have but not necessarily passed to offspring are going to disappear. Once your genetic diversity reaches 5%, it won't be long before you see the breed disappear altogether. I support purebred dogs fully and the breeding of them, but some of the practices are making me question if what we are doing (for the sake of the dogs) is actually helping them.  For instance, I would not breed a dog with signs of hip dysplasia and this is the current trend for obvious reasons. However, there  is not an actual genetic link (just suspected) cause of the disorder, which may have other contributing factors known and unknown. Futhermore, recent research suggested that the number of dogs with hip dysplasia has not significantly gone down even with all the intervention. It is true that two cleared adults (hip rating of excellent) can and do produce pups with severe hip dysplasia. Most people are unaware of this and may be in for a surprise. So, since the researchers have not been able to pinpoint an actual genetic link, it leads me to think we are breeding out the diversity of the genes of all purebred breeds with these practices.

Anyone can chime in if you have more knowledge, expertise on the matter.
I was surprised to learn in the latest National geographic edition just how few genes dogs actually have and the small amount of different genes between say a yorkie and a mastiff dog. so the gene pool is very small to start with.
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