Breeder Fraud - what steps do I need to take

Breeder Fraud - what steps do I need to take

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jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 2/22/2010 3:01:37 PM
I am a breeder, so fraud is NOT limited only to the unsuspecting public!!

I purchased a dog from a breeder. I had three requirements: Puppy would be male, one parent would be a Champion, and he would mature within AKC Chihuahua size standard, and several wants that were flexable. 

The breeder will not respond to phone calls or emails and her website has been off-line for over a week.

I am in Alabama, she is in Oklahoma.

I have always been on the "sellers" side of a transaction, this is my first experience with Fraud.

My questions:

What do I need to do and in what order do I proceed? I could really use some advise.

I have my copy of a contract (no seller signature) and about 80% of our emails.  ALL payments were paid via Pay Pal with a comment that the payment was for the puppy. 







beaglebrat

Posts: 1371

QUOTE 2/23/2010 12:51:17 AM
Are you absolutely sure this was "intentional" or do you think you were taken in by a person who spoke like they knew more about show dogs, than they really did?



On this site and 99% of others, breeders say their puppies are all "show quality" when they are the furthest think from being "ring worthy".



This person has at least one Champion parent, but are they possibly "kennel blind"?



Or did they sell you a puppy they thought would turn out better than it did?



I personally never give guarantees as to size or showablity, because so much can change in a puppy between 8-12 WEEKS and 8-12 months. Some go through the gawky stage and come back beautiful, others just stay homely.



I don't know your situation at all. It sounds right now like you think this was an intentionally misrepresentation. If someone is selling you a young puppy and they say "it WILL do great in the show ring".....you should always give them a second thought. No one can guarantee any puppy will actually win or Champion. There are too many variables.



I think most of us at one time or another purchased puppies that did not turn out 100% as expected. That is why I paid over 10K for a finished health tested Champion. That is about the only way to guarantee how a dog will turn out.



I hope you tell us more of your situation.



Take care!

jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 2/23/2010 5:03:07 AM

Quote beaglebrat:

Are you absolutely sure this was "intentional" or do you think you were taken in by a person who spoke like they knew more about show dogs, than they really did?



On this site and 99% of others, breeders say their puppies are all "show quality" when they are the furthest think from being "ring worthy".



This person has at least one Champion parent, but are they possibly "kennel blind"?



Or did they sell you a puppy they thought would turn out better than it did?



I personally never give guarantees as to size or showablity, because so much can change in a puppy between 8-12 WEEKS and 8-12 months. Some go through the gawky stage and come back beautiful, others just stay homely.



I don't know your situation at all. It sounds right now like you think this was an intentionally misrepresentation. If someone is selling you a young puppy and they say "it WILL do great in the show ring".....you should always give them a second thought. No one can guarantee any puppy will actually win or Champion. There are too many variables.



I think most of us at one time or another purchased puppies that did not turn out 100% as expected. That is why I paid over 10K for a finished health tested Champion. That is about the only way to guarantee how a dog will turn out.



I hope you tell us more of your situation.



Take care!

The puppy was not selected off this site.  I spoke with several breeders at shows and her name was mentioned (with several others) I chose her because she would allow payments on a puppy, and some of her dogs had really "awesome" pedigrees. 



There may be reasons that I am still unaware of, but no, this seems to be totally intentional, and it appears I am not the only one she is avoiding.



I spoke with her handler (email) and she is having trouble contacting her also. It seems she is off grid. The handler also paid for a puppy that has not arrived yet.




This puppy was not purchased with any misconceptions it would become a Champion,  which was something I could work with (a Champion is in my dreams --just not realistically at this time).  I am trying to add good, genetic bloodlines to my girls that have wonderful dispositions and "nice" pedigrees. I started working on this about 2 years ago.

I am also more than aware of how difficult it is to guess the adult weight of a dog. As a Chihuahua breeder that is the biggest grip I hear......but at 11 weeks of age the puppy was 3lb 12oz.  I fail to believe he will be under 6 lb as an adult.

She did offer to give me a 1/2 price discount when I get another dog if this one did mature over 6lb.   Just what I need... 



I sold 4 healthy  (granted they were pedigree challenged) puppies to get the money for this dog.



Pay Pal will not assist because it was paid for in payments (that was something new I learned....)  AKC will not assist because it is not money owed to THEM.

I did contact a Lawyer in OK (awaiting on more information) 

beaglebrat

Posts: 1371

QUOTE 2/23/2010 7:45:35 AM
Is it just the size or is it other intentional conformational flaws? I know that show dogs of toy breeds sometimes ride the line between big and oversized. I know of both Shih Tzu's and Yorkie Champions that are known to be over weight.



They also "say" rule of thumb wives tale is that you triple the toy breed puppies weight at 3 weeks and double it at 12 weeks and that is a good estimate of the mature adult weight. Going by that, your puppy should not be that far off, because it is any Chi over 6 pounds right? So does that mean a 7 pound dog is a disqualification, or is a 6 pound 1 oz dog a disqualification?



I do feel you though. I purchased multiple Pug adult studs over the internet in the last 4 years and not one was even close to the size they claimed. One was supposed to be 18 pounds. I drove and picked him up. Sent him straight to my vet and he was 28 pounds. Big difference. What are you going to do though?



I just resold the dog and went about my business. The next dog I got was very small but had skin allergies so bad I could not breed him, if he would breed, which he wouldn't-- These people knew I was looking for a dog for my breeding program.



Again, I had to resell that dog at a loss. My current dog I found locally out of the paper.

dihart

Posts: 322

QUOTE 2/23/2010 2:47:20 PM
Just for information correctness; you mean triple the weight at 8 weeks, double it at 12 for estimated adult weight, and still that is just an esitmate.

So someone thinking a pup that weighs over 3 pounds at 8 weeks will level out at under 7 as an adult is fiction for sure, unless you starve the pooch.



     And that is a total burn for you JChamps, sorry to hear about it. You know maybe the lady had an accident and is in the hospital, a million things could have happened including she is taking your funds and closing up shop. Horrible way to end her business, but possible if she is in a bad situation. Anyway keep trying.



      I am surprised about paypal not being willing to help. I have always liked paypal for the fact that they can manage a dispute and $$ is not lost to fraud. That they are a safe option, safe for the buyer and safe for the seller....So what if  your funds were made in payments. that makes no sense to me.  
beaglebrat

Posts: 1371

QUOTE 2/23/2010 4:53:10 PM
Writing tired. I did mean weight times 3 at 8 weeks.  Weight times 2 at 12 weeks, but I thought her puppy was 11 weeks, so that would be closer to the 12 week mark than 8 weeks. So if this theory is true it may stay close to an acceptable weight-- but is that the only flaw?

jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 2/23/2010 6:47:05 PM
Well I did a slightly sneaky deal, had a friend call to see if she was actually avoiding my calls......she returned the friends call within 3 hours.



At that time I had a meltdown, I called and told her machine I was sick to death of begging and pleading with her to respond and she could either call me within 6 hours or the next correspondence from me would be a Lawyer in OK - I gave his name and phone # and told her she was welcome to call him to provide any additional information.



I also mentioned I knew several of her show friends and her handler and I would make a point of letting them know what she was doing  (even if it was a one-sided version) and would back it up with Pay Pal receipts and emails from between up.  I know that sounds awful,  but as I mentioned I was in the midst of a meltdown.



The fact that the dog will be oversize was a major concern (in a male - NOT a female) All this was covered and agreed upon well before any puppies were considered. I believe my big problem is the fact that she tried to ship me a dog "at the last minute" that she was fully aware was not going to be what I wanted as a stud dog and what we had agreed upon!! It was all written out and agreed upon (my copy from her has NO  SIGNATURE, I signed, dated and mailed her copy to her)

I was more than willing to wait (have been waiting since Jun 2009)



Anyway....within 10 minutes she called and stated all sorts of reasons she has been unable to respond (I must admit I was not sympathetic at all) as it all had a clear ring of avoidance to me. 



She has agreed to offer me a young male (18 mo) that meets all the requirement I had originally requested. I have request a signed contract stating all terms be sent to me (is a computer generated signature considered legally binding???)  Me of ABSOLUTELY  NO  FAITH now



Anyway....that is how it stands as of now.  



 
jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 2/23/2010 7:00:34 PM

Quote dihart:

Just for information correctness; you mean triple the weight at 8 weeks, double it at 12 for estimated adult weight, and still that is just an esitmate.

So someone thinking a pup that weighs over 3 pounds at 8 weeks will level out at under 7 as an adult is fiction for sure, unless you starve the pooch.



     And that is a total burn for you JChamps, sorry to hear about it. You know maybe the lady had an accident and is in the hospital, a million things could have happened including she is taking your funds and closing up shop. Horrible way to end her business, but possible if she is in a bad situation. Anyway keep trying.



      I am surprised about paypal not being willing to help. I have always liked paypal for the fact that they can manage a dispute and $$ is not lost to fraud. That they are a safe option, safe for the buyer and safe for the seller....So what if  your funds were made in payments. that makes no sense to me.  
I was really surprised with Pay Pal also, I have a business account and do a large amount of my dog payments through them.



 This is the response I got to my questions about my problem: 

 NOTICE the second sentence about multiple payments......I never knew that.



Dear   XXXX  (that would be me),

Thank you for contacting PayPal.



To qualify for PayPal Buyer Protection:

    * Use PayPal to purchase an eligible item on eBay.

    * Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items

purchased with multiple payments are not eligible.

    * Send the payment to the seller through the Pay Now button or the

eBay invoice.

    * Open a dispute within 45 days of the date you sent the payment,

and escalate the dispute into a claim within 20 days of the date you

opened the dispute.

    * Keep your PayPal account in good standing.

Find out more about PayPal Buyer Protection, click "Legal Agreements"

located at the bottom of any PayPal webpage and click "User Agreement".



Thanks for sharing your concerns with us. We value what you have to say,

and if you have more questions, visit our Help Center by clicking "Help"

in the top right corner of any PayPal page.



Sincerely,

XXXXXXX (Don't think I am allowed to post her name) 

PayPal Customer Solutions

beaglebrat

Posts: 1371

QUOTE 2/24/2010 8:26:02 AM
Please don't take this the wrong way. You paid a lot of money for a puppy. You were promised certain things that were not true, and they quality was less than you expected. The puppy may not have made the cut for show and as a stud dog.



That though is why I really rather not sell to show people. It is too much pressure. Looking at a 6week-6 month puppy you don't know if it is going to turn out for show. Too many variables. Too much can change physically, say nothing of not having a "ring attitude".



I don't want someone to invest $2000 in to a show puppy and maybe spend $5000 in handler fees to be disappointed that the pup turns out with one tiny feature or attribute that makes it difficult or impossible to place in show.



I rather just sell it for the same $2000 to a family that just wants a beautiful pet that is going to love it no matter what.



I would never ever make any claims about show quality on a puppy, that is why for me, they are called show prospects. Not show puppies. It says right on my contract I do not guarantee show or breed ability.



I purchased my stud dog.....over $10K. He is a Champion. He had some health testing done, but if he didn't/doesn't pass everything, it is my loss.



If he dropped dead in the car ride home, it would have been my loss. There was NO GUARANTEE.



It turns out he has been a very crappy stud dog. That was never mentioned. He would NOT breed more females than he would in 2009. Costing me multiple tens of thousands of dollars. Not to mention making friends mad because he wouldn't breed their female so he was costing them money too.



As far as paypal, I am sorry for your situation, but I am glad over-all that they are not willing to just snatch back payments over a puppy disagreement for a puppy that had already been shipping. No breeder should want that.



I be sure to put right on my invoice, no refunds to be given, because I have heard horror stories of payments being snatched back. It should be, between the breeder and the puppy purchaser to resolve their problems, if they need by legal matters. Not by paypal- or I would not accept that as a form of payment.

jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 2/24/2010 11:22:12 AM
My complaint is only in part about the expectations of the puppy. All things that I wanted were agreed to PRIOR to any money being exchanged. 



My major complaint is the fact that there was open communication until the puppy went into the weight limits that would make it a possible danger if bred with my females.  And when WE both agreed this puppy would not be acceptable (or at least I thought we both agreed) SHE STOPPED ALL COMMUNICATION, and I know for a FACT it was intentional.

I was open to any wait that would be needed, as I had been waiting for over 8 months, time was not an issue or problem.



Two to 3oz would not be a weight issue with many dogs, but with a Chihuahua mom that could mean a higher chance of C-Sections and/or other damage.



I was left with the feeling that my wants/needs were no longer important or even an issue, she had my money and would get back to me when she got around to it.



I left one final message that I knew she was monitoring her calls and that she needed to reply to me or the next correspondence would be from a local Lawyer....she called within 10 minutes!!



Tentative agreements were made, she offered me an excellent option, which I was more than happy to accept if the male in question is of reasonable genetic health.

The draft contract was supposed to be presented to me yesterday.....I will wait for awhile and see what comes of this????



If this does or does not work out, it will be our last dealings. As a seller I keep my buyer informed of the process (especially as things seldom seem to go per schedule)

I feel it is my right and reasonable expectation to be kept informed and to have my inquiries responded to. 
jchamp52

Posts: 261

QUOTE 3/1/2010 3:28:17 AM
UPDATE:  She is back to the old "dodging"  my calls and emails again.  I guess a Lawyer is my only option.
snwalter07

Posts: 1

QUOTE 3/1/2010 11:58:05 PM
Good luck getting your money back! I just caught the woman I hope to buy a corgi pup from doing something suspicious (she posted a new add with a different dog name and same pictures) and your story is my worst fear. 
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