cardigan welsh corgi vs pembroke-breed standard alterations?

cardigan welsh corgi vs pembroke-breed standard alterations?

tegan

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/7/2009 2:14:21 PM
hello,
ive been researching welsh corgis for about a year now and i am in love! i want to be a future owner but i am taking my time so i have the necessary knowledge of the breeds to provide the best suitable home for one. i prefer the cardigan as far as personality goes sense i am a proud owner of 8 years to a completely spoiled dachshund and the dachshund and cardigans behavior are strikingly similar and me having experience with the sassy behavior i would make a good mother for a cardigan i believe.

now the cardigans behavior is the best suited for me but there is something i am questioning lightly sense it makes minimum difference to me but curiosity still eats at me.

ok its about the bobbed tail of the pembroke (which i am also in love with lol) and the cardigan with the full tail. now its fact that most pembrokes are born without the tail but a good majority of them are not, and in this case the tail is docked after birth to meet breed standards. now some buyers prefer to keep the tail b/c its cute and curls up like a spitz (due to ancestry) and keep in mind that this is going against breed standards. but when i ask if a cardigan, instead of having a full tail have the tail docked after birth to give the appearance of being a pembroke i was given the answer of no b/c it goes against the breeds standards but going against the standards of a pembroke by keeping the tail is ok? now you might ask why would you do that when you could just buy a pembroke for the tail, well, the color pattern of blue merle is only present in the cardigan breed, not the pembroke, so what if an owner wanted a blue merle-bobbed tail corgi. they could simply just contact a cardigan breeder with an unborn litter and ask them to dock the tail within the appropriate time frame for you. couldnt you? it would be the same as asking a breeder not to dock the tail of a pembroke only its the other way around. and as long as the breeder is experience and knows how to properly dock tails and also does it within the first few days after birth to insure that the pup endures no pain sense the nerve endings are not fully developed at that time, im confuse of where the problem would lie giving the pup was destine to be a family pet, not a show dog. and if the pembrokes have their tails docked, wheres the difference in having the cardigans tail docked other than breed standards.

now i would love my pup tail or no tail, blue merle or no blue merle, but still the question arrises if you could have the temperament and coloring of a cardigan but the bobbed tail of a pembroke. a lot of dogs go against breed standards by having tails docked or not, or having ears cropped or not.

winddial

Posts: 52

QUOTE 11/8/2009 5:15:36 PM
I would like to first address the misconception that MOST pembrokes are born WITH OUT tails, it is very much the other way around.  About 99% of all Pembrokes are born WITH TAILS.  I am a breeder and very active in the breed studying Pembroke bloodlines like I am studying for a college degree.  There are only a few select bloodlines that carry a natural bob tail (NBT) gene and even those bloodlines are not from the USA.  With Britains and other countries banning the procedure they have developed more lines with it than we have in the United States. 



Cardi vs. Pemmie and the issue of tails.  Cardi's and Pems while are related, they are not as closley related as most people think.  The differences in their backgrounds vary more than the average person realizes.  I had looked into Cardigans a few years back but decided against it as I feel more dedicated to my current breed.  I am going to make an analogy to help you maybe understand it from a Cardigan breeders point of view.  English Mastiffs and Rottweilers are both related breeds carrying similar backgrounds but they are both very different but just because the Rotti has a docked tail would you ask or even think an English Mastiff breeder would dock a puppy tail for you if you asked?  No, because it simply is not something that is considered in the breed.  The only acceptable form for an English Mastiff is to have its tail intact. You wouldnt dream of seeing an English Mastiff walking down the street with a docked tail. The same principle applies to Cardigans.  Alot of people think that just because they sort of look alike that what is good for one is good for another but they simply aren't that closley related.  Cardi's are more from hound decent and Pems are from a spitz decent. 



Many Cardigan breeders probably take offense to the thought of docking the tails on their puppies when somebody asks.  Another thing too about Cardigan breeders, the breeder community is very tight knit. By that I mean very few Cardi's have made into the hands of "pet only breeders" and most breeders are breeding for show.  And determining show/pet quality in their litters is impossible to do before the tail docking deadline would be.  Their show quality and pet quality puppies get determined at 8 weeks which is obviously too old dock a tail.  If they could tell at 3 days or younger which puppies would be "pet" qulaity, it could be a remote option but it is not. 



In Pembrokes, there are alot more "pet only" breeders who have no intention of showing or even selling to show homes who don't mind leaving their tails intact as it is of no concern down the road.  I have left tails intact on a few puppies in the past and it's something that has to be arranged very far in advance and I have to wait for a "runt" puppy who I don't think is  up to tail docking at 3 days old or a mismark puppy who has too much white that does not have the option to be shown or be used in a breeding program regardless of show quality.  



I have one right now who was born as a mismark and I'll be darned if that pup didn't grow into the nicest pup in the litter. Great example of the breed.  Had a lady who wishes to have a tailed pem waiting for such a puppy. She got her wish as for me a mismark is the only time I can label a puppy "pet quality" at 3 days old.  She also wants to do agility so she will be getting a very nicley built agility dog.   
tegan

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/8/2009 10:39:33 PM
wow i didnt know that. so most pembrokes are born WITH tails. so you have to dock your pups. well with your experience, do your little pups act distressed when their tails are docked. b/c threw research i found that most places say that at 2 days old (when tails should be docked) the pup hasnt developed the nerves fully and barely notices but ive never docked a tail or even owned a dog with a docked tail so i can only recite what ive read.
winddial

Posts: 52

QUOTE 11/9/2009 12:44:44 AM
The standard docking dead line is 3 days old and there is a short mild discomfort but as soon as it is done they act as though it never happened and return to nursing from their dams. 
tegan

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/9/2009 4:58:32 PM

so they are not traumatized for the rest of their lives, i think the pups are probably more distressed about being away from their mother than the actual docking lol.

so, if there was a cardigan breeder who was selling family pups only and not looking for show pups at all would you say it is an either or decision for the client or would you say that even under those circumstances the tail should remain intact? you can answer any which way, im just curious and this is my chance to clear things up with a reputable breeder who has experience with docking and knows the effects on the pup.

and i recall you giving an example using the rottweiler and english mastiff and i completely understand what you were saying and you are completely right, my cousin rescues mastiffs and owns 2, the male is only a pup and boy is he a hoss lol. but yes he would look very goofy without his tail, but also some people dont dock their rottweiler's tails and i think that is kind of goofy looking too, just b/c im so used to the bob. also, even thou related the rottweiler and mastiff look completely different, unlike the two corgis, except for the ears, tail and that the cardigan is a heftier dog, they are almost identical in appearance, so if someone was to dock a cardigans tail no one would know the difference unless they knew the breeds well. i hope that made sense?

but i really appreciate that you are taking the time to humor my ignorance lol. i hope im not bothering you, i just want to gather as much information and as many opinions as possible. so thank you :]

winddial

Posts: 52

QUOTE 11/9/2009 9:35:30 PM
 even thou related the rottweiler and mastiff look completely different, unlike the two corgis, except for the ears, tail and that the cardigan is a heftier dog, they are almost identical in appearance, so if someone was to dock a cardigans tail no one would know the difference unless they knew the breeds well.



But you see this is very much not the case.  It is such a common misconception that they are "identical" except for...... They are both long and low and the similarities end there, a Dachshund is also long and low, and so is a Dandi Dinmont.  Have you ever seen a Cardigan travel?  Good Heavens I hope no Pembroke ever travels like that, it would be embarassing to me as a breeder.  Their front assemblies are totally different and so are their rears. The only time they might ever look similar in conformation is in the case of poorly bred dogs and in that case alot of breeds can start looking like other breeds.  Rat Terriers and Chihuahua's can trade identities from poorly bred examples.  I've seen Weimaraners that looked like Dobies and Dobies that looked like Weimaraners. 



I cannot answer for wether or not it is acceptable for a Cardi pet breeder to dock tails or not, that is always up to the individual breeder and he/she is the only one responsible for their own level of standard.  Would I dock a tail for you if I had Cardigans?  Probably not, doesn't mean that someone who does is a bad person, just not something I would feel comfortable doing with THAT particular breed.  You can't make someone dock the tails on their puppies if they don't want to. I suggest keep asking around until you find a breeder who matches your expectations.  I'm willing to be there is probably somebody out there, it may take some hard searching but there is usually somebody out there willing to do anything to sell a puppy. 
tegan

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/9/2009 10:05:18 PM

well granted ive never seen a corgi of any kind in person and have only studied from pictures and an occasional video here and there i apologize, i guess they are much more different than i had originally thought. i knew they were completely different as far as the actual breed and ancestry goes but threw pictures alone they do look similar. i guess to really notice and appreciate the difference you need hands on experience with one or the other. kind of like people who own dalmations lol, to someone just passing buy they all look the same but to the owners of the dogs they are all just as distinguishable as humans... if that makes any sense.

if i may ask, i know you pointed out a few differences before, but could you tell me everything that differentiates the two visually, or at least that you can tell, when bred properly?

threw pictures alone i believe the cardigans fur is a little coarser while the pembroke is more feathered and soft but i honestly dont know that is a guess sense ive never touched one. i know about the ears, paws, general size and of coarse the tail. but other than that im not sure.

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