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Posts: 11

QUOTE 10/23/2009 7:23:39 PM
After reading all comments, I would like to say this: I have owned 5 AKC Labs in my life thus far. The very first was given to me since the breeder died. He ran a traditional kennel specializing in labs for police work. This dog was absolutely amazing and was housetrained in 3 hours... so easy even a ten-year-old could do it. The pup was 7 weeks old when we got him. The second purchase was 2 dogs from a hobby home-breeder. I should have known right away. The dogs were birthed in the garage in a mound of hay. It was clean and sanitary (as best as it can be, I guess) and the pups were three weeks old. When I picked the pups up at seven weeks, they had been moved to the inside of a small shed... also filled with hay. They were intelligent dogs, but unbelievable to housebreak. They were finally almost one year old before thoroughly housebroken. The next dog I got from a home breeder who actually kept the dogs clean and allowed them to scamper out to relieve themselves with their mother. This pup was housebroken in 2 weeks. Finally, my last dog was "crate trained." Granted, I bought her from an unscrupolous "house breeder" who left her and her pups run through his 200,00 brick home to the point that 2 inches of mud was on the floor. He kept her in a crate in the house for 4-5 hours at a time, only to relieve her at noon. The poor thing had Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Being a highly intelligent lab, I housebroke her in 2 weeks and got rid of the crate for good! I honestly can't believe that people are touting crate training! Labs are extremely intelligent!

Whether they are kept in a kennel or in a home, I think it's important to really judge their living conditions. If a dog and/or puppy has been allowed to pee and poop where it eats (except of course for young nursing pups), these will be the hardest and generally impossible to housebreak. For my dogs, if they do make a mistake and pee or poop inside, I clean it up and put their food and water near the spot for 1-2 days. Most dogs will not pee or poop where they eat, unless they've been brought up that way.

Kudos to breeders and home breeders who are taking the time to keep their homes and kennels clean and neat so that it makes housetraining easier on petowners!

I've had loving labs, but did not breed any of my previous labs because I felt that they were somewhat stubborn and mean to other animals/ people. My latest lab, Maggie, I just breed because she has a fantastic personality, is smart, poised, and meets the breed standard. Personally, I plan to socialize all my puppies through a pre-training program before sending them home. In addition, many pups are being sent home too early. Many breeders send pups home at 6 weeks. It has been scientifically researched that pups learn proper doggie behavior from their littermates and mother and mostly from their mother from 6-8 weeks. By sending them home early, they are losing this valuable time. If the mother is truly a good dog with great personality, the pups will begin to imprint. These factors should also be considered when buying a new puppy.


Posts: 1371

QUOTE 10/23/2009 10:55:40 PM
I crate train all my dogs during the house training process. I think it is imperative that people have a safe method of containing their dogs when they are away.

Labs are very destructive puppies, just like Boxers and 99.9% of any other puppy out there. Crates don't just protect all of you belongings, but the puppy from ingesting things that could poison it or become lodged in the intestines. I have heard of dogs locked in rooms chewing through doors and drywall.

My puppies go from a large whelping box to an XL crate in my kitchen, they are not stressed or traumatized by a crate. Dog's like crates. It becomes like their bedroom or quiet place.

Do you know, in the summer I am always filling up holes if I leave my dogs out all day. I don't mean little holes, I mean huge holes like a den that they can fit their entire bodies in, even though there are shade trees and several dog houses.

I will agree with you, that puppies should stay with the breeder until 8 weeks. I don't release my babies until 8 weeks because I don't trust the average pet owner to care for a puppy that young properly. Puppies are still very delicate and have touchy health issues even at 8-10 weeks.

Socialization with mother and littermates really isn't a concern for me. I think it is more important for them to be socialized to people. The best dog we have was a single puppy who's mother died and was completely hand raised. There goes that theory.

Also, you will soon find out that it is often CRUEL to leave a mother in with a litter of large breed puppies. They will literally scratch, bite and tear her nipples to shreds to get to the milk.

Any breeder of larger breeds that I know weans from mom somewhere between 5-6 weeks. With some mom's you are literally forcing them in with their puppies after 3 weeks when they start to get teeth. Some would probably injur their puppies if forced in with them until 8 weeks.

I have also seen in large litters that the small puppies are picked on ruthlessly by their littermates. In those cases I think they would have it a lot better if they go to a home where they are not beat half to death by littermates.


Posts: 11

QUOTE 10/24/2009 9:26:18 AM
Hello Beaglerat,

   I'm glad that you defined crate training, because most people actually think that when they get a "crate-trained" dog that it means that they can leave it in the crate all day. As breeders, we need to fully explain, as you did, what crate training is for. I have never left any of my dogs locked in a room or in a crate. I've never put any of my labs on chains outdoors.

You can easily break labs of digging by filing their holes with their own poo. It sounds gross, but believe me, they smell the poo and they will avoid digging in that spot again. If they were truly home-raised and not around their poo, this works like a charm. Now, the crate-training you do does make sense, but again, there are a lot of people that think a crate-trained dog can and should be left in a crate. If this is what's happening to our pooches, I do not see how it is any different that a kennel. Now, please do not think that I am saying that you are like a kennel because I am not. I am saying that I have had friends/ other people who get dogs who work all day long and leave the poor things in crates all day long, every day because they want a dog. This is as or more cruel than a kennel. I've had labs chew things, but I usually break them pretty quickly. My current lab, the one that was so-called crate trained (again, I think this was by an unscrupolous breeder and I am not saying that all breeders who crate train are unscroupoulous), will sit on a rug by the front door until I get home. The most I leave her for is 2-3 hours. I work, but I check on her by coming home for lunch or I have my mother with her... just like you would babysit any child. I think it's cruel to make a dog hold itself for 6-8 hours or more, even though all of my dogs would do this for me in an instant. When finding homes for puppies, if you (plural) crate train, then I hope everyone is explaining what crate training is for... short trips away from home, etc. (just as you have listed).

Again, if your dogs are digging unwanted holes, it works like a charm to fill the hole with poo. After awhile, they will no longer dig anywhere in your yard.

Posts: 11

QUOTE 10/24/2009 9:47:02 AM
Oh... and in reguards to the mother and socializaiton. The pups should stay with their mother until they are 8 weeks old. I was not saying that they should stay right with her, but be allowed to follow her outdoors when she goes out to relieve herself. They will learn early to go out with their mother. Part of a good dog is understanding their role as a dog, which they do learn from their mother and littermates, especially between 6-8 weeks of age.  By no means was I saying that this is their sole source of socialization. The pups have I planned will not be released to new homes until they are 8 weeks old. Not only that, I plan to fully socialize them with friends/ family/ and outings. Most of the pups I am breeding I want to become therapy dogs or have the abilty to become therapy dogs, farm dogs, etc. Depending on what someone wants, I plan to fully socialize them to other pets, people, etc. But it is important that they still have contact with the mother. I am also employing a checklist of behaviors and if the pup doesn't pass the mustard, it's not being released to a new home.

Also, I agree, Labs can be VERY desctructive. The very first one was destructive. He ate everything but luckily it never seemed to bother him. Please don't add anything here... as I was ten-years-old. But over the time, if labs are given proper room to run and release their energy, ie not being cramped up in a crate, they are not destructive at all. With the 1st, I lived in a small house, but we took the dog on 4 walks per day and to the park where he ran across the whole thing 5-6 times.  With the next 2, I lived on 2 acres. I had a 2400 square foot home, a fenced area, and then let them run daily. These two, the hardest to housebreak, never chewed up anything as puppies.

The next two, I have a .5 acre fenced in and 17 acre cabin that I visit each weekend. My latest, Maggie, loves it, and she doesn't chew anything. I also spent 1 week teaching her "hot" and "poison." You can do this by allowing them to sniff plants, saying "no! poison!" strongly and praising them when they back away. I did this from things like bleach water, drano, poisonous plants and mushrooms, etc. It took 1 week and ten minutes of training per day and she approaches "poisonous things" cautiously and does not try to lick, chew, or bite them.

Most Labs are intelligent and with a little training and someone who knows and has the patience to train them, you do not need crates or cages to contain them. (Some you may still do depending on their ability to learn new things or perhaps while they are being trained). But in all honestly, I personally prefer to have my dogs babysat (i.e. checked on or with someone) than to leave them in kennels, cages, or crates.

I can tell by your responses that you are extremely knowledgable about breeding but I would caution that crate training should be well-defined to the general public so that they do not think that it is okay to own a large breed dog and work 5 days a week and leave the poor thing cooped up all week long until they get home.

Posts: 5

QUOTE 10/26/2009 10:37:49 AM
Beaglebrat- though I agree with what you said about giving the mother a break from the puppies, and protecting the runts of the litter from getting picked on, it is important to note that time spent with littermates and the mother is how puppies learn bite inhibition. Of course, if one has the time to work with each puppy individually, and daily, these social skills can be learned from a human, but the idea of "you nip too hard, I won’t play with you anymore" is best learned from littermates. Puppies who are with their brothers and sisters for a full 8 weeks are significantly less likely to be nippy.

heaventree- I think your concern about dogs and crates is slightly misplaced. A dog can be quite happy spending 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in a crate. A properly crate trained, and properly exercised dog can have an excellent life with crate training incorporated. The thing is, when a dog's humans aren’t home, and they are loose in the house, they tend to do one of two things. They either sleep, or get into things. A dog can sleep quite comfortably in a well-fitted crate, if exercised properly before the owners leave for the day. Also, you say "large breed dog" as if it is specifically not ok to crate large breeds. This doesn’t make sense. Your concern should be high energy versus low energy dogs. Many large breeds are much mellower than many small breeds. The issue is crate size. A large breed dog will be perfectly happy in a crate as long as it is the right size. Properly crate trained dogs think of their crate as their safe zone, their room, their den. It is not cruel, it is natural.


Posts: 1371

QUOTE 10/26/2009 1:31:12 PM
Telling them "no" when they bite as a puppy also inhibits them from biting, and I just don't get it. By that rationing, larger puppies biting smaller puppies and LIKING IT, which they like it very much..... teaches them to bite?

I don't buy in to a lot of the crap that people are saying. Everyone realizes 20 years ago, it was perfectly acceptable, and common for puppies to be released at 6 weeks, even 5 weeks. Those are all the dogs that most of us grew up with, and they turned out just fine.

I don't know personally of any "large breed" dog breeder that keeps puppies on mom until 8 weeks, and if so, I feel bad for their moms.

I know of a lot of breeders and they all wean from mom between 5-6 weeks. Some show breeders wean from mom at 3 weeks and hand raise as soon as they start eating food, so that mom dries up faster, and her teats don't sag, so that she can still have a show career.

Saying "keep puppies with momma and babies" sounds good to pet families, but it isn't good in real life practicality.

What do you do if mom starts biting the puppies to the point that she permanently harms or kills them? That would be a natural thing for a bitch to do if she were trapped in an area with her babies and she couldn't get away.

It is a personal opinion I guess, just like raising your dogs in a home or kennel. We all have to use our best judgment on what we feel is the right thing to do.


Posts: 102

QUOTE 11/1/2009 8:27:54 PM

Quote c-lane:


You say you dont care what Beaglebrat and my self do and yet you keep coming back with more crap . The point to my copy and paste you clearly missed. So ill paste the one part in once again.

Q. Who regulates "commercial dog breeders"?
A. Those facilities that breed and sell their animals to pet stores, brokers, or research facilities are covered under the Animal Welfare Act (AWA) and are inspected by the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) Animal Care program. Because the focus of the AWA is on commercial dog breeders and wholesale dealers, the law specifically exempts most retail pet stores from Federal regulation. This includes facilities that sell dogs directly to the public.  "Gee, sounds like HOBBY/SHOW breeders" to me! While USDA does not have the authority to regulate retail facilities, many States enforce laws that cover animals in these situations.

exempts - Freed from an obligation, a duty, or a liability to which others are subject; excused

Q. What types of animal dealers does USDA regulate?
A. The AWA requires people who breed dogs for sale at the wholesale level and the wholesale dealers who supply these animals to pet stores, brokers, or research facilities to be licensed with USDA
I'm simply copying and pasting.  What is the definition and requirements to stay within the Hobby/Show Breeder catagory?   Just because you don't fall into

one catagory doesn't mean you don't fall into another one which is regulated.


Posts: 102

QUOTE 11/1/2009 8:33:03 PM

Quote beaglebrat:

Runningridge-- You are just interpreting things WRONG.  The way that YOU want to see them. In Lieu of MEANS INSTEAD OF, and it does mean one or the other. Different areas can have different requirements. Like if you have more than 3 dogs in town you need a kennel licese or what ever. Or it could be more than 6 or more than 12. We do not live inside any city limits.

Before I purchased my home 8 years ago, knowing that I wanted to breed dogs-- I checked out my local requirements, and it was a deciding factor. I knew I could not live in a town. I can have 8 dogs per acre of property. We have 5 acres, do the math. 

I don't think they have any problem at all with the number of dogs I have, because it is much much less than I could have on my current property.

As far as the State is concerned, you are wrong again. I can tell you I had a issue about 18 months ago concerning some adult dogs I purchased out of State. Several of the State vets had to come out several different times. All were aware that my dogs were individually licensed and I didn't have a kennel license.

So, my county and The State of Michigan are aware of how I raise my dogs and how I license them.  I never have complaints about my dogs-- why would I, if they are well cared for?

I still get inspected yearly by AKC and have never had any problems at any time with anyone concerning my dogs. All raised in my home. Which every puppy should start out in a home. If you have more than can fit in your house, you have too many dogs and shouldn't be raising them.

P.S. Quit copy and pasting all this bullcrap that no one, including myself is interested in reading.

AKC or the State Vet are not what we were discussing.  One has nothing to do

with the other.  

Like I've said multiple times.  I personally have no issue with you, the way you

choose to raise, license or sell your dogs.  I was and I do repeat only coping

and pasting the laws so that Others were not led astray.

If your not interested in all of this "bullcrap' as you call it then quit replying and the

thread will fall to the wayside. 

Posts: 102

QUOTE 11/1/2009 8:35:41 PM

Quote beaglebrat:

I actually read some of the stuff from the michigan law that was highlighted. YOU ARE INTERPRETING THINGS WRONG.

It says Kennel License MAY MAY MAY MAY MAY BE REQUIRED.  Not IS IS IS Required!

AND THAT IS IS DETERMINED LOCALLY.  GET IT!!!!!! Exactly what I have been saying. GOD!

Yes, I get it ... WHY do you think I posted so many LOCAL ORDINANCES

from different Towns where they DID REQUIRE some type of licensing and their criteria for those licenses - GEEZ!!!!!

Posts: 1

QUOTE 11/1/2009 9:33:38 PM
i breed in my home.My mothers are loved and nurtured even before conception, While they are carry there babies I provide massages, special diet exercise. when babies are born im there and I rotate them and giv emother breaks thourout 1st  few weeks of life. they are handled by my childern and ar parrt of our family unitl i choose the best fit for each [ersonality and care.

Posts: 1

QUOTE 11/4/2009 2:28:27 AM

Quote beaglebrat:

MoDog-- You can raise your dogs how you want. I would never ever ever in a million years buy from a breeder like you. That is a personal choice. I don't think that how you raise puppies is how they should be raised, and YES I DID LOOK AT YOUR SITE. Again, not impressed. I don't think dogs should live out their breeding life in tiny cages.

I have a HUGE QUESTION. Who wants your unhousetrained breeding dogs when you are finished with them???????? They must be VERY DIFFICULT TO PLACE.

Who wants a 5-8 year old used up little dog pooping and peeing all over their house?  Particularly in Missouri...... the Puppymill capitol of the world? Where breeding dogs are thrown away like used toliet paper when they are done.

It's not just about the puppies, pooping and peeing through grates AS YOURS DO I SEE.

It is also about the adults living their lives in those tiny kennels. SAD. SAD SAD. I don't like how you raise dogs one bit.

I will be keeping mine in the house, and I can clean up pee, and I make enough money raising my dogs PROPERLY that I can afford new carpeting when ever I need it.

You also said that puppies don't have bladder control until 4 months.... they may not have COMPLETE bladder control, but mine have a GREAT START at crate training. They can hold it for as long as an 8 week old puppy should have to hold it, about 3-4 hours, and my puppies often go dry all night long by 8 weeks.

You wouldn't know about that, because you don't take the time and effort to even try. I KNOW WITH OUT QUESTION, my puppies potty train multiple times better than yours do.

Which potty training is the biggest frustration of raising puppies in most cases. Puppies that never potty train or take a longer time, are more likly to be "rehomed".

I have a detatched garage. I have a small "mother in law" house on our property, and I have a small barn/pool house. All could house A LOT OF DOGS if I chose to raise them that way. I just don't think it is right.

Modog-- why don't you raise rabbits, or chickens or something like that?  I don't think that dogs/puppies should live in tiny cages. It's the money... right? You couldn't make that much money raising rabbits. Raise fur animals like Chinchilla or Mink. Just not dogs.

 Hey there beaglebrat,

    Was wanting to applaud your entries...and wondering if you could poin
t me to 'Modogs website info so that I can be sure NEVER to buy a puppy from her.  Keep up the good work,  Tangokisses

Posts: 11

QUOTE 11/5/2009 2:43:44 PM
Beaglerat and whomever.

You mentioned about safety of dogs and the necessity for crate-training. In all my years of owning labs (20+ years) I have never had a lab eat poison. You train them which things are poisonous ahead of time and not to eat them. My problem with "crate-training" is all in the semantics. If you stick a dog in a crate, it is really not trained for anything. It is just in a crate. Someone else said that it might like a crate, however, I don't know any dog who wants to hang out in a crate all day while their owner is as work. Furthermore, the dog isn't "trained" when you let them out of the so-called "crate" so I do not see how a group of people (namely breeders/dog-owners, can call it as such. So the dog likes a crate. So what? Does not mean that it is trained.

I feel that this term grossly misinforms the general public and I feel that such misinformation is wrong. Now, I am not saying that there are not some benefits to dogs who like to be stuck in crates. They don't bark when their in there - which I have yet to see one who is supposedly crate-trained not bark so this continues to be debated. Nothing takes the place of good ole training and a quality pet to begin with.  Here's my website for anyone interested:   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (edited)

Posts: 11

QUOTE 11/5/2009 3:57:03 PM
In regards that crate-training is "natural" like an animal's den.

Although it may be a "den" of sorts, animals in the wild leave the den. Even when they rest, they do not stay inside the den unless it is frigid or during some daylight hours. Being in a crate is not natural, therefore the arguments regarding that it is are flawed. I have no qualms to new information as long it the new info is logical and sound. A sound argument would be: Crate-trained dogs are good for people with little or no time for their animal and therefore, crate-training is an easy way out to responsible pet ownership. If anyone wants to say this, then I will argree. Or, if you own a breed that isn't so smart, then I would say that crate-training in a good way to go. But I disagree about keeping labs and other large breeds in them (as well as most small breeds).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (edited)

The life of a wolf is largely occupied with walking.  Wolves are tremendous walkers.  Day after day, wolves commonly walk for eight hours a day, averaging five miles per hour.  They commonly travel thirty miles a day, and may walk 4,000 miles a year.


Posts: 1371

QUOTE 11/5/2009 11:29:15 PM

You are entitled to your opinion, I think you are absolutely wrong, but you do what works for you, and you tell your families what you think will work for them.

The Labs I have met are generally AWEFUL, like Marley and me.... for real. Completely destroying everything in their site. I couldn't imgine haveing a Lab in my house and not have it trained to go in to a crate when I could not directly supervise it. I can't imagine not putting any puppy in a crate at times it can not be supervised.

Heaventree, do you have any kids? Because I do, and you know what? When they were infants and toddlers, I put them in a playpen, so they could be safe and not be hurt. Now, I am sure they didn't like to be in a playpen either, but it was for their own good, and I didn't leave them in the playpen 24 hours a day. The same rules apply for puppies in crates.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH PUPPIES BEING LEFT IN CRATES FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME. I do not claim it is "house trained" I say there is a big difference between being house trained and crate trained and house training takes more time and work and you can expect accidents, but I think keeping them dry in a crate is a start.

Furthermore, I don't know who you sell puppies to.............but I assume most people with enough money to PURCHASE a puppy have jobs and work. They are going to have to leave the puppy alone during work periods, and either they are leaving them in a crate, room, or to have run of the house.

I think it is STUPID to allow a puppy to let a puppy have the run of the house and if that puppy doesn't destroy your house, you don't have a puppy, it must be a space Alien in disguese becase any puppy I have ever met will tear crap up if left for long periods unsupervised. They will also poop and pee all over the house if they need to go and no one is there.

It isn't really fair to judge people, because they have to work and don't get to stay home and raise dogs 24/7 like we breeders are so privileged to do.

Yes many of my families do work, and I do encourage them to safely contain their puppies in a crate..........HOWEVER............ I also don't let them have the puppy until I know they have a "Potty Plan", someone who can come at least every 3 hours for the first few months to let out the puppy to go potty, have some attention and excercise. If people don't have a reliable plan to let the puppy out consistently, then I say, maybe it is not the right time for them to get a puppy.

I would be interested to know what you tell working families to do with their puppies when they are gone for 8 hours per day.

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/5/2009 11:38:53 PM
Amen Beaglebrat. I was about to post an almost identical response, but my computer had a problem and i had to refresh the page. when i did, i saw that you had responded PERFECTLY. I agree completely. Well said. You appear to be the voice of reason of the Next Day Pets forums.

Posts: 1371

QUOTE 11/6/2009 12:02:57 AM
Thank you :) Tonight I am midwifing puppies over the phone for a friend of my mother who is having a first litter. They have 2 big puppies so far and are trying to figure out if they have more. Fun, fun. I wish they had got the x-ray done last week like I suggested, but they had a family emergency, now they are just guessing. I generally get a lot of dog phone calls or emails.

I just went on Heaventree's website that s/he was not supposed to post on the forum, but since they did........I looked. For all this yapping, this person is a newbie, looks like they are just having their first litter.

So I guess my question as to what they tell their working families to do with their puppy while they are gone is pointless. Maybe Heaventree only expects non-working families to purchase their puppies.


Posts: 1371

QUOTE 11/6/2009 12:26:04 AM
One more crate story that I just thought about. When I first moved to my current home, we had a huge terrible thunderstorm which knocked down a tree that we did not know about, because it was dark outside. When we let the dogs out for a final potty, they all broke loose. We live on a main road and before knew they were out, someone was pulling down the driveway to say the 2 had been hit by a car in front of them that did not stop.

We went out there, and my husband's Chessy was dead. My Boxer was still alive, but laying out flat and would not move. I knew she was hurt bad and by feeling her, that it was probably her back. I got a bad feeling that she broke her back. We lifted her with as little movement as possible and took her in to the vet "on-call".

It was a lady vet from a practice, I don't really care for. She took and x-ray and said that she had a fracture in her back and would probably need to be euthanized. I said I was going to wait for my own vet in the morning.

I left her there for the night, hoping she wouldn't die. In the morning I took her to my vet who looked at the x-rays.

He said that there were a couple options. I could take her up to Michigan State and have them work on her spine. The surgery would be between $5000-7000 and there would be no guarantees that she would live or not be paralyzed. We had our second child that was just a few months old and we could not afford that, so surgery was not an option.

The second was obviously euthanasia. The third option would be to just see how she healed. However if at any time she jumped around or moved too much she could be permanently paralyzed in both back legs, and she would lose bowel control. Which would have meant euthanasia.  So it was made clear that she was to have as little movement as possible for at least 6-8 weeks.

So I figured, why not try to give her a chance? We took her home and put her on antibiotics, steroids, and pain killers. She was in la-la-land for the first few weeks.

At first I had to hand feed her canned food and give her water through a syringe (before I knew how to sub-q hydrate). I had to carry this 65 pound dog outside to potty 4 times a day. She would go, and I would carry her back as still as possible.

This went on for 6 weeks. I let her stand a little more each time to go potty and sometimes when I set her down she would start to walk. By 8 weeks she was walking out to potty herself. With in 16 weeks she was running like a normal dog, though we were still careful with her for at least a year, but after that, she was like a tank again.

I give the example of this story, because a crate saved that dogs life. Had it been a neurotic dog, or any dog not used to being contained in a crate, it would have killed itself by moving with a broken back and becoming paralyzed.

It is good to be able to have a dog tolerate being contained, in case they have to be at some point in their life.


Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/7/2009 3:06:14 PM
That's an amazing story Beaglebrat. So glad your pooch made it

Posts: 11

QUOTE 11/9/2009 7:51:39 PM

If you had read all of my posts you would have seen that I am not against keeping puppies safe. I am against leaving dogs in crates all day. I work full-time and as I had said before in previous posts, all of my puppies were babysat until they were trained to leave things alone in the house. I owned a very destructive lab once and he never ate poison. I still would not have placed him in a crate. Most labs are destructive because they do not get enough excerise and/or the owner's attention. But calling them crate-trained, i.e. using the word "trained" is incorrect. Because, this is not training it is sticking an animal in a crate. Whether it is done for good reasons or bad, there is nothing "trained" about a dog left in a crate. When you put your kids in a playpen, the playpen did not "train" them. It confined them as you have stated for their own good. I, personally, am tired of seeing everyone tout "Crate-trained", when in fact, the animal is not trained. It is merely confined in a pen.

You were criticising others (whomever that modog is) about how terrible kennels are and yet you are saying that you "crate-train."

I have bought labs from both hobby and kennels. I do agree that most kennels (ie puppy mills) have no way to take care of all the pups). But I have bought labs from a home hobby breeder who didn't do anything more, unfortunately. So, for AKC to recommend home hobby breeders as well as next day pets, then there is a problem.

Personally, I would be currently categorized as a home hobby breeder. All of my pups will be handled and born inside and taken care of inside (not even inside in a garage). I think the criteria for finding a good breeder needs to be clearer, as I had bought 2 labs from a hobby breeder who left them in hay in a garage and in a shed with their own poo and they were almost impossible to housebreak.

Posts: 5

QUOTE 11/10/2009 1:42:54 AM
The difference between a crate trained dog and a dog just "stuck in a crate" is that they learn that it is their safe, comfortable place. It becomes their room, or den. A crate trained dog will enjoy spending time in the crate, even when they are not forced to. A crate trained dog is perfectly content to relax and sleep in the crate during the day without panicking or trying  to get out. My dog even hoards little things he steals around the house (toilet paper rolls, toys, the occasional sock) in his crate because he know's it's HIS space.
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