| moggie |
| Posted 4/30/2008 12:22:41 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 417
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 i dont think so...i think that it would be a good thing as far as ethics go, and also to save the new owner the expense, however, there are reasons that i was unaware of as far as very early neutering and spaying go. i wonder why the vets are doing this if these issues exist??? but..back to the ethics...who am i to tell someone i am the only one who can breed?? isnt this what these contracts are for?? it does in some circumstances come down to this. the more money one spends, the more able they become to own a champion sired full registration puppy...correct?? more money = breeding rights...right?? |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 4/30/2008 12:32:18 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote moggie: i dont think so...i think that it would be a good thing as far as ethics go, and also to save the new owner the expense, however, there are reasons that i was unaware of as far as very early neutering... |
The most ethical and elite breeders have contracts and co own with people and control their dogs where abouts. They don't believe in over breeding only advancing the betterment of the breed. I've seen people that paid $2,500 and up for that cute "t cup" with full breeding rights. Some vets may just have the big picture in mind and will do the early speutering. It has to be done at the shelters etc. Many vets like to wait until about 6 months for many of the reasons that were mentioned. I guess the only thing that might help would be stricter enforcement of speutering contracts and less breeding in general. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/30/2008 2:04:59 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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im rolling up my sleeves again pom not in a mean way, but..i have to disagree...some of the most elite breeders have dirty underwear in their closets...behind the scenes..they do not want any competition to take away from their money making machines...some are ethical and some are not...also..i think most ( the ones i know of anyway) shelters give a slip out with the dogs for the adoptee to have a mandatory spay or neuter done...all people once again...do not follow these rules...and t/cups( we all know this is a slang word used to describe extra tiny) are NOT to be bred period. only disaster can be expected to follow...2500.00 is far too much for any dog...i dont care what the circumstances are...but..t/cups.(slang only)..serve no purpose other than a tiny mite sized companion to cuddle and love and toss into your fancy little bag to take along...i think this is mainly what people who want extra tiny are looking for....anyone who would try and breed them would be a stupid person...if given the choice of a 2.5# maltese or a 5# maltese i would choose the 5# dog...i dont want to lay on the floor to make eye contact!! |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 4/30/2008 2:26:23 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote moggie: im rolling up my sleeves again pom not in a mean way, but..i have to disagree...some of the most elite breeders have dirty underwear in their closets...behind the scenes..they do not want any competition... |
Mao already addressed your first paragraph and I did preface by saying ethical. Many shelters that I know of and rescues, and even a pet store in my town speuter before they ever go to their homes and vets perform those surgeries. I would agree that is an exorbinant (sp) price but I've seen it quoted by the purchasers and the breeders websites shown. Yes it would be stupid to breed light weights like that but it is often done intentionally and by an ooops mistake.
Of course dogs in CA and NY always seem more expensive but there is a breeder in the plains that charges $5000 for some and apparantly people pay it and barter with her. She also brokers different lines. I guess that goes on as a show breeder does this in my area. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/30/2008 5:22:05 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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| Quote PerfectPom: I did contribute to the cycle by buying from a petstore. It was impulsive and not something I ever envisioned myself doing. I have to say though that I was rewarded with a parasite free healthy puppy who... |
 see my little finger shaking!! i dont get this...so what if you contributed....contributed to what?? to the little Dog who is now your very best buddy?? from the posts, seems like you are very happy with him/her. this is silly...if you didnt take him home, someone else would have, and the cycle goes on and on and on. so what???? if there were no pet stores, there would be puppy stores, puppy ads...so...why does it matter sooo much where the puppy comes from if it is already here?? here he is...he is born and waiting for a home...i dont see the crime in wanting him. if i didnt have a dog..and i was shopping and saw the puppy Dog eyes i fell in love over...i would take him home. wouldnt give a thought of him being wherever he was. i fully understand the puppymill issues, i fully understand that dogs are in shelters needing homes just as Puppies are in pet stores needing homes...im sure you did him/her a favor, and probably yourself too. and i see this as a good thing. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 4/30/2008 5:51:56 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote moggie: see my little finger shaking!! i dont get this...so what if you contributed....contributed to what?? to the little Dog who is now your very best buddy?? from the posts, seems like you are very... |
Pet stores aren't a good thing. I just got lucky getting a healthy dog, many aren't that fortunate. Yeah there are plenty of mills and unscrupulous breeders and brokers selling over the internet and in papers and magazines too.
I think somthing more restrictive will be done as time goes by to get control over all the over breeding and it could result in people not even being able to afford the Dog they want. back at you..are you serious?? |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 4/30/2008 8:26:23 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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| Quote moggie: see my little finger shaking!! i dont get this...so what if you contributed....contributed to what?? to the little Dog who is now your very best buddy?? from the posts, seems like you are very... |
impulsive buying is one of the reason why there are so many dogs that end up in the shelter. Pet stores doesnt really care what u do with the Dog once you purchase the puppy. They dont do any follow ups nor do they educate the buyer. You can't change the situation if you have that who-cares-everyone-is-doing-it mentality. In order to stop puppymill one must stop supporting it. This is wants wrong with the world...we live in a country that wants results and wants it now.. Just because you don't see any changes doesnt mean you should just jump on the bandwagon and think so what everyone is doing so you should too. Yes if u don't buy that puppy someone else will but the point is that lost profit the minute you decide to not purchase a pet and don't think your not the only one. More people are being educated and more pet stores are closing down. I know where I live there are no pet stores in the surrounding area.
Also it is important to know where the Dog comes from because if a Dog is poorly bred not only it could have health problems but also behavior problems (ie. Hyperactivity, aggression). |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/30/2008 11:59:59 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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| Quote emlee3: impulsive buying is one of the reason why there are so many dogs that end up in the shelter. Pet stores doesnt really care what u do with the Dog once you purchase the puppy. They dont do any follow ups... |
im sorry but, you are stereotyping. every pet store does NOT buy from puppy mills. i also will not agree with you that if the puppy were left there and the profit was lost..that this would save the world. it wont..and the most important thing IS the puppy. you can look at it anyway you want too...but..look at it this way...it has to be one way or the other. either you leave the puppy there and then what?? what happens to him?? or you take him home and make him part of your family. honey, i have to tell you something...it certainly isnt only pet stores closing. loads of small businesses are closing. the economy is in an emergency situation and it is only going to get worse. pet stores do not have to have Puppies to survive. i am not on the side of the pet stores, i can promise you that, however, i am on the side of the Puppies that need homes and i think that should be the main concern here. not putting them in jeopardy in order to cause a missed sale?? this will not stop pet stores or puppy mills. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 5/1/2008 7:35:32 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
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| Quote moggie: im sorry but, you are stereotyping. every pet store does NOT buy from puppy mills. i also will not agree with you that if the puppy were left there and the profit was lost..that this would save... |
Although I agree not buying from pet stores is a good idea, I agree that that alone will not stop puppymills. Laws and enforcement of laws are the only thing going to cut back on puppymills.
Of course many pet stores have been put out of biz by people refusing to buy from them not the economy. The US has roughly 3/4 the number of pet stores that sell Puppies. it had twenty years ago. Todays economy may take out a few more but its not the reason for the decline in numbers.
Also when your patting yourself on the back about saving the life of that poor pet store puppy remember his mom and dad are likely living less than wonderful lives. Who saves them?
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| moggie |
| Posted 5/1/2008 8:02:29 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 417
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 i understand where you are comming from and agree with part of it, however i dont think that it is fair to purposely make this puppy suffer because his mom and da may or may not be. let me put this to you in a question. are you saying that the need for massive amounts of Puppies to suffer and be left without homes is what it will take to put a dent in puppy mills and close down pet stores??
this will not work. i still believe that it is the economy and not that people refuse to buy Puppies in order t o shut down pet stores that is the issue. i heard through the grapevine just last week, that a girl who owns 2 pet stores which do sell Puppies in georgia...is closing down. these were full line pet stores...she has aparently had them for many many years. it is the economy that is causing her to close, so here is something for you to think about. she has made the decision to close the stores, sell out all inventory, and keep the puppy sales as her sole business. she will buy and resell Puppies at the flea market...this makes me sick!! but it is what it is and people will ALWAYS find away around anything that they can. |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 5/1/2008 10:12:01 AM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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| Quote moggie: im sorry but, you are stereotyping. every pet store does NOT buy from puppy mills. i also will not agree with you that if the puppy were left there and the profit was lost..that this would save... |
where do you think pet stores get their Puppies from if not from puppymill?
I disagree that the reason for pet stores closing down is because of the economy. The last time I've seen a petstore was about 10 yrs ago where I live. Yes the economy is drastically getting worse but that's not stopping people from buying unneccesary things
I understand that you want to help the pups but the majority of people that goes to a pet store arent thinking there saving a Dog like you are most are just looking for a dog, which they don't take the time to research, and a lot of them are just impulse buyer. You understand the responsibility of caring for a Dog but can you say the same for everyone who goes to a pet store looking for a quick buy. Not only that but like i said you don't know where these Puppies come from and a poorly bred Dog can make it hard on the owner.
If someone is looking to save a life why not adopt an older dog. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 5/1/2008 10:28:47 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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im not following you...what do you mean that the last you saw a pet store was 10 years ago?? pet stores are everywhere. what i mean is that i do understand that the chain stores in the malls are yes buying their Puppies from a certain corporation who promotes puppy mills from the west, however most of the local mom and pop stores buy from local breeders in their areas, if they can. another belief that i have is this. i dont think MOST people purposely go to the mall in search of a puppy. i think thay are shopping in the mall when they walk by the pet store and see Puppies which gets their attention. they see the one who gives them the puppy Dog eyes and then become hooked line and sinker...or...go home thinking that omg..the poor little thing..i have to go back and rescue him...i cant go there with this again with the adopt a Dog thing. some people will and some would rather raise a puppy in the manner of which they want too. this is a very controversial issue also which goes back to certain people wanting certain breeds or mixes of certain ages and certain sexes. we all dont buy a volkswagon do we?? i have mixed opinions on all of these issues. nothing you or i can do will change what people want or what people will buy, or how they think. this is what makes the world go around...different strokes for different folks. it is NOT the fault of someone buying what they want, that the shelters are full...is it?? once again...everyone cannot take home an untrained huge dog. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 5/1/2008 11:02:23 AM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote emlee3: impulsive buying is one of the reason why there are so many dogs that end up in the shelter. Pet stores doesnt really care what u do with the Dog once you purchase the puppy. They dont do any follow ups... |
Really a huge percentage of breeders don't really care what you do with the puppy once you purchase it. Yes they may tell you to email pictures and keep in touch but they don't really know what's happening with the puppy. Does the Byb you used check on the status of your dog? You can also end up with health and temperament problems using other less than steller breeders. I know you said your Dog had some problems. I guess you can't really speak for how all pet stores inform their customers because this particular Petland extensively covered hypoglycemia etc. with me and did do a fair amount of discussing their dogs. Ultimately I don't care what others think as mine was already being put in the back room to make way for newer Puppies and would have been sent off with the broker to go to auction or back to the breeder soon. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 5/1/2008 1:48:49 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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 yeah!!!! someone with an open mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! noone knows what really goes on behind closed doors...do they?? |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 5/1/2008 1:59:09 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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| Quote moggie: im not following you...what do you mean that the last you saw a pet store was 10 years ago?? pet stores are everywhere. what i mean is that i do understand that the chain stores in the malls are... |
What i mean is ...I live in a pretty big city and haven't seen any pet shops that sells cats/dogs. The biggest one closed down 10 yrs ago. In not saying there arent ant pet store but the fact that its declining over the years.
The thing about pet shops is that they carry a wide variety of breeds. As we all know most all breeds serve a purpose whether they herd, pull, guard, ect all depends on the breed. Even energy level goes back to the type of breed. Let's say that what you said about majority of people go to pet store to save a Dog is true. Well, if a person who doesnt know anything about the breed buys a Dog that they have no experience with what do you think is going to happen when the Dog grows up and they can't handle it? Pet store employees don't know anything about the Dog the temperment or the history nor do they care. so then the cycle begins |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 5/1/2008 2:19:40 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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| Quote PerfectPom: Really a huge percentage of breeders don't really care what you do with the puppy once you purchase it. Yes they may tell you to email pictures and keep in touch but they don't really know what's happening... |
We are discussing pet store not byb. I never mentioned bybs and I never said to purchase a Dog from a bybs. I did mention a poorly bred Dog having problem which can also come from a unreputable breeder, which I can speak of since that is where my Dog came from which is why I stress it so much. I can speak for buying at a pet store since when I was young that was where we bought our pets. Both min pins i had when i was young came from a pet store. One had bad case of allergies and eye problems and another died of a disease I can't seem to recall right now but she suffered from seizures My family didnt know at that time anything about puppymill or bybs. Internet wasn't available at that time so buying at a pet store was popular.
I'm not going to fight with what you did since we already discuss this before. I believe in order to stopit we need to educate people. Before coming on this forum I can honestly tell you I didnt know anything about bybs or puppymill and if I wasn't educated about it I probably be buying my next Dog from a byb. So don't think we should give up so easily.
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 5/1/2008 2:43:26 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote emlee3: We are discussing pet store not byb. I never mentioned bybs and I never said to purchase a Dog from a bybs. I did mention a poorly bred Dog having problem which can also come from a unreputable breeder,... |
Well really this is a message board where anyone is allowed to interject with their own thoughts. On the same note this thread didn't start out talking about pet stores.
I'm not disputing your circumstances but I find many many people say they didn't know anything about pet stores, even Oprah claimed not to. I knew about it as a kid and I don't know if it came from my parents or I would guess more from my reading or watching some show. If you read Dog books at all it is clearly outlined. I think many people claim not to know to make themselves feel better. Although since I never thought I would buy from a pet store it's not like I had been watching clips from actual mills.
Still I could say to you that from your experience with problem pet store pups that should have led you in the direction to seek out better than a byb. So that would seem an impulsive choice too. You seem to like to rag on my choice of being a pet store consumer but you supported a byb as well so it doesn't make you that much less dirty for lack of a better term.
I can honestly tell you though that my yorkie doesn't have temperament or health problems. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 5/1/2008 2:54:03 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 417
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| Quote emlee3: What i mean is ...I live in a pretty big city and haven't seen any pet shops that sells cats/dogs. The biggest one closed down 10 yrs ago. In not saying there arent ant pet store but the fact that its... |
i do not know of ANY large cities without malls with puppy stores in them nor any pet stores that sell Puppies. I am sure that if you looked, you would find one within driving distance. you also have quoted me wrong. i dod NOt say that most people go to a pet store to rescue a dog. what i said that most people while shopping in the malls or shopping for pet supplies...happen to run upon puppy eyes that jerk their hearts out and then one of 2 things happen..either they fall instantly in love and take him home, or, they cant get that one particular one off their mind, and end up going back to get him. i also will not agree that a pet store knows nothing about Puppies and the different breeds. pet store owners and puppy sellers are not stupid people. trust me they have to do their homework in order to answer questions pertaining to the different breeds or they would sound like idiots and blow their sales. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 5/1/2008 2:54:55 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote emlee3: What i mean is ...I live in a pretty big city and haven't seen any pet shops that sells cats/dogs. The biggest one closed down 10 yrs ago. In not saying there arent ant pet store but the fact that its... |
Sorry weak argument. Many breeders don't know common things about the breeds they're breeding. They may be really good at producing and little else and/or never really did that much research themselves. How many people actually go back and consult a byb or a pet store when they encounter a temperament problem anyway? Health problems depending on how current, maybe. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 5/1/2008 3:01:49 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 417
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| Quote emlee3: We are discussing pet store not byb. I never mentioned bybs and I never said to purchase a Dog from a bybs. I did mention a poorly bred Dog having problem which can also come from a unreputable breeder,... |
NOT DONE YET!! furthermore, there are plenty of books with massive amounts of information in them. akc has breed specific books, so does every single library. and last but not least...you asked what would happen to a Dog that someone didnt know anything about the breed and took home and then found out they couldnt handle it?? her is my take on that one. I think that it doesnt take a ROCKET SCIENTIST to properly care for a dog. if anyone of any moral upstanding and intelligence choose a puppy or Dog to take home. i think a normal human being would do what it takes to make that Dog part of their family. thats what i think. i know there are idiots out there too which goes right back to this one more time.
there are all kinds of people in this world some are can do's, some are cant do's, some are will do's, some are wont do's, and some just are dont give a **** ers!!! you, i, the pet store, the puppy mill, the show breeder, the shelter, nor the rescuers will ever change people!!!!!!! you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cant fool all of the people, all of the time...bet you cant tell me who said that!!! |
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