| Hells68 |
| Posted 6/10/2006 12:21:23 AM |
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Active: 06-10-2006
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Hi - I'm looking for more info on these colors of GSDs - If you have any websites or piccy please share!
Thanks!  text |
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| jboth91 |
| Posted 6/10/2006 12:45:27 AM |
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Active: 03-20-2006
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I personally don't know much about GSDs, but it has been a heated decusion for the past week. From what I've read is that they have bad health problems and are not a true color. but that's just what i've read. this is a post Rescue Wench should answere!! |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 6/10/2006 5:20:48 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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She'll be here soon, I'm sure of it!
Do you have links to any pictures of these colour GSDs? |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 6/10/2006 10:48:42 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
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Quote GraceEmily: She'll be here soon, I'm sure of it!
Do you have links to any pictures of these colour GSDs? |
Yup, RW will sure be here to answer you.
First of all, rare colors that are not part of standard are a defect, not something to WANT. I'm not going to go into detail because I might be wrong, so I let some other experienced members comment on this. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 6/10/2006 4:21:05 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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Quote Dobiegurl313: Yup, RW will sure be here to answer you.
First of all, rare colors that are not part of standard are a defect, not something to WANT. I'm not going to go into detail because I might be wrong, so... |
You're not wrong so far. Run with it if you like!
Dobiegurl is completely right that these are not desireable traits but are faults. Deviations from the standard. While I think colour deviations are less serious than some other faults and often standards are things which should not be aspired to (causing problems with GSDs due to the over-angulation of the hip), they are still faults. Also, labelling this fault 'rare' and charging lots for it is morally wrong because it is deceit. Plus, the lengths that breeders go to to produce more 'rare' money-grabbers lead to extensive inbreeding which, even if the original mutation was harmless, will lead to many serious and life-threatening problems related to having such a very limited gene-pool. |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 6/10/2006 5:11:34 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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Quote GraceEmily: You're not wrong so far. Run with it if you like!
Dobiegurl is completely right that these are not desireable traits but are faults. Deviations from the standard. While I think colour deviations are... |
i don't know the terms used in Dog shows but what is a fault? i was looking for more information on blue and liver GSD which i've never heard before and it said online that white, blue and liver GSD are faults that are not used as a standard. it may not be a standard color but you can't really stop these "mutant" as you called it dogs. i'm not saying its okay to breed these dogs just to get a certain color..but to outcast them just because they are a different color from the standard is plain wrong esp if your not showing the dog..is there any other health problems that occur in these color variation GSD compared to the standard GSD? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 6/10/2006 5:38:17 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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Not sure with GSDs specifically but in general dilute dogs have more skin conditions, are prone to canine dilution alopecia (baldness, basically) and have a higher risk of photosensitivity. I wouldn't 'outcast' these dogs as you put it - I would simply discourage breeding of them. I would suggest that owners of them have them spayed/neutered rather than trying to make money from their 'rare' coloured dog. But I would say the same to anyone trying to breed a Dog just for its colour - breeding specifically for colour is wrong whether it is an accepted colour or not as the other things (health, ability, temperament, conformation) are far more important than just colour and by choosing just certain colours the gene pool is heavily restricted, leading to other serious hereditary problems.
A fault in showing is an undesireable trait which the judge will penalise by not placing the dog. Basically the highest placed Dog has the least faults, which are deviations from the standard, or things which the parent breed clubs (who write the standards) think should not be there. |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 6/11/2006 12:59:03 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
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| Quote emlee3: i don't know the terms used in Dog shows but what is a fault? i was looking for more information on blue and liver GSD which i've never heard before and it said online that white, blue and liver GSD are... |
They are what they are. Mutants of the GSD. I'm not saying they dont deserve a lovng family but they should not be bred purposely and sold for rediculous amounts of money because they are "rare". |
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| jboth91 |
| Posted 6/11/2006 1:24:38 AM |
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Active: 03-20-2006
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 6/12/2006 12:53:41 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
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the livers , & blues are not mutants * the only mutation so far is the panda..( in GSD's)
they are undesirable "flaws" in the breed , but are throw backs to flawed dogs - or dogs that carried that gene.
naturally the Dog in general, DOES NOT HAVE HEALTH ISSUES due to coat color, * the breeder will be the one responsible 99 percent of the time if it does- its due to not checking the health of the parents. etc...
these dogs are FINE pets BUT- again should NOT be bred EVER.
and where you GET them is a big issue- if you GET one of these dogs from a breeding that is BREEDING FOR THIS COLOR - you most LIKELY will have health problems. as they will be breeding recessives to recessives .. thus that CAN cause skin & coat issues.
BUT if you get the Dog from a breeder that is a responsible breeer and had a "throw back" and have 2 "normal" colored dogs produce a liver or blue- then you will PROBABLY NOT have the health issues.
again if you buy one of these dogs as a pet from an RB they WILL give you limited registration & at the least a spay , neuter contract.
if they DO NOT they are NOT an RB.
here is a link to GSD coat colors: that covers diluttes indepth.( check the links ON the page for indepth dilutte colors and FAQ's
http://www.gsdbluesnlivers.8k.com/intro.html
RW |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 6/12/2006 1:04:52 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
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But they sure are pretty though.... |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 6/12/2006 1:13:46 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
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| Quote foxfire_ga79: But they sure are pretty though.... |
they have many fanciers.. but again - its a pet thing.. we STRONGLY are anti BREEDING these dogs.
but they make fine pets is bred well & RAISED well. just like all gsd's ..
the raising & traing of this breed REALLY has much to do with its personality.
RW |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 6/12/2006 2:54:00 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
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oh here read this :
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 6/12/2006 4:50:02 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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Quote RESCUEWENCH: the livers , & blues are not mutants * the only mutation so far is the panda..( in GSD's)
they are undesirable "flaws" in the breed , but are throw backs to flawed dogs - or dogs that carried that... |
are white and black GSD flaws too?
i haven't read the site you posted but was wondering if these color variation GSD (if breed right) has no health problems then why are they undesirable flaws in the breed? isn't breeding done to improve the breed's health..so why are people so worried about color variations? |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 6/12/2006 5:27:04 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
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a black & WHITE would be a flaw i have only seen ONE in my entire life. and she was GORGEOUS and SPAYED.
you MAY be referring to a black & silver ( where possibly the silver is VERY light) OR a back & tan where the tan is very dilutted and looks almost white.
RW
the only acceptable breeds that are NOT counted against as flaws ( for instance you CAN show a liver but with that many points OFF due to that color you will probably NOT get far with the dog.
blk & red
BlK & tan
BLK & silver
BLACK
bi - color
sable( red , gray. or black) all 3 sables are FINE.
***white is a FLAW that will make it UNABLE to get in a show ring for conforamtion here in the USA.
i have seen livers & blues in early stage shows but the diluttes lose a LOT of points- just for color
the darker & richer the pigmentation the better.
taken from the AKC:
"Color
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults.
A white Dog must be disqualified. "
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 6/12/2006 6:20:46 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
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Quote RESCUEWENCH: a black & WHITE would be a flaw i have only seen ONE in my entire life. and she was GORGEOUS and SPAYED.
you MAY be referring to a black & silver ( where possibly the silver is VERY light) OR... |
actually i meant black OR white GSD sorry but i never thought there was so many different color GSD. i've only seen pure white, pure black and the black and tan(?). my best friend has a black and tan and she's a great Dog very smart. i was just wondering how the AKC or whoever made up the standard can pick only a certain color to be a flaw. if the other color variations that are flawed (ex. pure white or liver and blue) has no medical problems (if breed right) then why is it flawed? i've always wondered because i know huskies come in different color and most are acceptable..even the recessive pure white huskies and even the piebald huskies. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 6/12/2006 6:46:33 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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piebald are penalised though, are they not because their markings are not symmetrical? Shouldn't Husky markings be as symmetrical as possible? The answer may be in the origins of the breed, as Siberian Huskiues were bred for no other reason than their working ability and temperament, regardless of colour, until they reached the US. |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 6/13/2006 12:37:11 AM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
Posts: 2084
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| Quote GraceEmily: piebald are penalised though, are they not because their markings are not symmetrical? Shouldn't Husky markings be as symmetrical as possible? The answer may be in the origins of the breed, as Siberian... |
piebald is a acceptable color.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/siberianhusky.htm
i know sibes and GSD are working Dog and are used specifically for work..but whats the big fuss about GSD having a different color variation? if a certain color affects their health then i understand why they wouldn't want to breed them but there isn't any known diseases that is associated with the liver and blue GSD. the only problem with the liver and blue GSD dogs is that they are a undesirable trait..why are they undesirable? |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 6/13/2006 8:40:49 AM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
Posts: 7081
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em..as a pet or working Dog its NOT undesirable..
i dislike that word but use it for lack of a better way to explain the standard.. the ONLY thing ALL the gsd people ( american, german show) agree on is the original standard for a DARK rich pigmentated dog.
as a preference.
there are many different theroies WHY this is :
some say the whites were not as "good: as :
in herding they were hard to see in a pack of sheep- thus making the job harder for the shepherd ( the man) to locate the Dog for direction..
also then when in military & police work.. they said whites "stuck out too much" and they wanted darker dogs so they were less noticeable.
* canadian police use whites a LOT..
BUT they are not as picky nor do they have a problem with whites.
basically as the standard states the diluttes as a serious fault.. thet tells you rght there you CAN show them- but with the points you will loose you wont get far with that dog. hence they are usually sold as pets.
and they make FINE pets.
and some are quite beautiful.
you see the standard disqualifys the whites all together - and the white GSD people are trying to divorce the whites FROM the gsd name ( calling them swiss shepherds) to gain show status registry.
but - like if you want a pet - OR even a working dog.. a dilutte will be fine , as far as working- it would depend on the dogs breeding - i have not seen any diluttes in schh..( most of the hard gsd working lines are sables ( of any of the selection:...red, black or gray.)
all black - no problems
all whie - exempt from any conformation BUT fine in working title shows.
RW
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| AngelZoo |
| Posted 6/13/2006 3:50:53 PM |
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Active: 10-25-2005
Posts: 1071
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Hells68:
I found a good site on the many types of Shepherds with photos and info.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html
Cheers! |
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