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Ear cropping |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 2:29:38 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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There are many groups other than PETA which oppose cropping and docking. I find some of PETA's policies, such as those you mentioned, abhorrent but I don't think they're wrong concerning docking and cropping.
I have yet to understand how anyone can like a breed, yet dislike individuals unless they have been 'enhanced'. In fact I don't think that you can like the breed that much if you think it needs surgical 'improvement'.
As I said before, I would happily rescue a Dog or adopt a Dog that was docked and cropped (though I believe there are none cropped in Britain) but wouldn't pay to have cropping done myself (if I lived elsewhere) and wouldn't buy from a breeder who does dock. This isn't to do with how the Dog looks, it is to do with morality. I don't think the same can be said for the opposite side - I don't think you can be morally opposed to leaving a Dog as it was born: only aesthetically. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 2:31:12 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Sorry! There are many versions of the same thing as I'm having a little bit of trouble with my computer! I'll get it sorted, though, even if I have to beat the thing... |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 2:32:30 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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There are likely to be more kennels like Kerioak soon, due to the partial ban on docking in the UK. I hope to see more dogs with their beautiful tails. As for the ears I'm not really a fighter in this issue as it's been resolved in my country. I know there are pressure groups in favour of a ban in the US, though, and I would offer them my moral support and advice if possible if ever I was asked for it. Until then I don't think it's my place to try and intervene in the US. I'm just pointing out that the global historical trend is in favour of banning; cropping first then docking, so people who want Dobes or other traditionally cropped/docked breeds should be prepared to see changes or to try and prevent changes occuring.
Ill ask you, micdobe, the same question I asked Dobiegurl - despite having only ever owned cropped and docked versions of the Dobermann breed, would you be willing to own a natural version? And would you abandon the breed if laws forbade docking and cropping?
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| puglet |
| Posted 5/15/2006 2:43:56 PM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
Posts: 830
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| Quote GraceEmily: There are likely to be more kennels like Kerioak soon, due to the partial ban on docking in the UK. I hope to see more dogs with their beautiful tails. As for the ears I'm not really a fighter in this... |
Hi Grace,
Its spooky that this topic has come beck up cause i was at the vet today and noticed a huge poster up on the wall about docking and cropping and i agree that its certainly not just Peta (who animal campaigners a bad name)who oppose docking. Not only had this poster a checklist as to why it was wrong and unnecessary, it also had a list of organisations like "The dogs Trust, the RSPCA, etc, who are ardently against docking and cropping. So i guess all the people who are walking around with cropped and docked dogs over here are getting them done on the black market by ill qualified people just to cater to their own preferences. |
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| kajukembo |
| Posted 5/15/2006 3:39:53 PM |
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Active: 05-13-2006
Posts: 19
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| Quote dusty082155: i dont think de-clawing is cruel as much as if the cat is declawed and does get outside , he/she has NO protection from dogs, another cat, etc. it can not even climb a tree to get to safety. both my cats... |
well the solution would be to only de-claw the front paws. i discussed it with my vet and that is what she and he recomended. it has worked out great, she does not scratch up things in the house and she goes out and mixes with the best of them, climbing trees, mouseing etc. she brings presents all the time |
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| kajukembo |
| Posted 5/15/2006 3:45:58 PM |
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Active: 05-13-2006
Posts: 19
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| Quote kajukembo: well the solution would be to only de-claw the front paws. i discussed it with my vet and that is what she and he recomended. it has worked out great, she does not scratch up things in the house and she... |
no it is illegal in Europe not in the US as of yet. but they are trying to get it that way.
personaly i have danes and i swore i,d never do it after my first one but i have to be honest the male i have has never had one single problem yet the other danes that do not have at least something with there ears one or twice a year. not all but most of them. just a note for thought.if it is for vanity then no if it gives the Dog a more care free and easy life (problematic) then go for it responably. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 4:08:38 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Cropping doesn't help to prevent any kind of ear infections. It logically makes them more likely to happen as the dog's ear canal is exposed and no protection is present at the opening of the ears, as in 'spitz type' breeds. Pendant ears need regular cleaning and failure to do so will lead to infections. This is the same in dogs who are traditionally cropped or in dogs who have never been cropped. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 4:14:07 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Quote puglet: Hi Grace,
Its spooky that this topic has come beck up cause i was at the vet today and noticed a huge poster up on the wall about docking and cropping and i agree that its certainly not just Peta (who... |
Hi. Sounds like your vet has their head screwed on, in my opinion. There's a quite famous vet/author (Dr Bruce Fogle) who's against docking/cropping and never fails to mention it in his books. I find that very good, as anyone reading up on breeds from his books is then made aware that it is possible to get these dogs uncropped and undocked, as so many people take for granted that they can only be found that way, or are unaware that they aren't naturally short-tailed and erect-eared. |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/15/2006 5:08:44 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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Puglet, what country is it you live in?
GraceEmily, you have completely missed just about all of my points.
You are not for choice as you said in an earlier post you are for imposing your choice on everyone else.
I am very willing to allow for undocked/uncropped dogs and to allow them to be shown but I want the same choice in return.
You think you have morality on your side. You are not debating, you only think you are, you are actually moralizing.
I have watched several litters of dogs of various breeds have tails docked, and litters of Dobermans have ears cropped. If I thought it was cruel I wouldn't be a part of it. In fact I used to be adamantly against it prior to getting my first Doberman. The breeder cropped the litter before placing them so there was nothing I could do about it except not get him. It was then I started to see that it wasn't the cruel butchery I had thought it was.
Now you're arguing with me about how the undocked tails should look. Do you have Dobermans or have you ever had them? How much of your time have you dedicated to the breed. Who are you to not only decide that the breed I've owned for almost 30 years should be docked or cropped, but to dictate what the tails should look like? Do you also have the right to decide how the ears should fold? They should fold whatever way *you* prefer, shouldn't they?
How is it you didn't understand what I said about breeding Dobermans with erect ears rather than creating a separate breed just to have erect ears? They wouldn't be Dobermans then, would they? So why do it? Because *you* prefer a hanging ear? So it's not just "natural" you're after, it's whatever you prefer is how the breed should be, never mind the fanciers who have devoted most of their lives to the breed.
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/15/2006 6:13:45 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Quote micdobe: Puglet, what country is it you live in?
GraceEmily, you have completely missed just about all of my points.
You are not for choice as you said in an earlier post you are for imposing your choice... |
Puglet lives in Ireland, I'm not sure how often she refers to this thread so she may not answer.
As for wanting to impose my choice on everyone else or having said that I am 'against' choice, find me a quote in which I've said that and I'll let you have that point in the one-upmanship game you're playing.
Morality, for your information, is an individual's beliefs and mine are that docking and cropping are wrong. That isn't me saying "I'm right, you're wrong", that's me saying "this is what I feel it is right for ME to do". I wouldn't even attempt to say what it is right or wrong for YOU to do. That is what makes this a debate, not me 'moralising'. As for telling me that I think I'm debating but really I'm not, I think I know far better than you what my intentions are, thank you.
I may not have lived as long as you, no. Does that mean I am any less devoted to Dobermanns? No it does not so the point is invalid and irrelevant. I am not saying how a Dobermann should or shouldn't look (as those who dock and crop do - they not only say how Dobes should look, they MAKE them look that way). I am saying that a Dobermann has a natural look - it is what is written in its genetic blueprint. To breed a Dog that has the erect ears of a cropped Dobermann without needing to actually crop them would be the creation of a new breed; not a Dobermann.
Also I have not dictated what the undocked Dobermann's tail should look like! At all. Again, you're assuming here. Find me a quote in which I explicitly state what a Dobe's tail should look like, please. I may have said what i, personally, find appealing. Don't we all? |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/15/2006 6:57:11 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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Gosh, that was pretty amazing. You didn't answer my question about do you own a Doberman?
You did not say in those words you are against choice, you stated you are for choice, but everything else you said belies it.
Your statement that if Dobermans were bred to have erect ears they would not be Dobermans but some other breed is simply ludicrous. Can't you understand that the Doberman is one of the most man made breeds there is? There is nothing "natural" about its coat, its ears, its structure. None of those are like the wolf, which is the "natural" ancestor of the dog.
The Germans changed their standard 12 years ago to call for a taller Dog with different front and rear angulation and allowed it to be longer than tall rather than square, squareness having always been a hallmark of the breed. So since they changed those things by your way of looking their dogs are no longer Dobermans.
FYI while most uncropped Dobermans have hanging ears, some have rose ears like a Greyhound, some have button ears like a Manchester, and a few have naturally erect ears. Are they then not Dobermans? No. They are Dobermans even by your illogical criteria. Because the genes for erect ears are in the breed, come down from the wolf ancestor. That's why Greyhounds, Whippets/ and Italians are sometimes seen with erect ears, like an Ibizan Hound, nature is trying to get back to the prick ear which is the heritage of all domestic dogs. Just because you don't like it doesn't change genetics.
You said docking is cruel and that is why it shouldn't be done. When I said the tails could be bred for straight tails then you were against that. Why? Your personal preference? |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/15/2006 7:02:38 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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I wanted to know what country Puglet is in because there's an interesting document floating around by the European Council for Protection of pets or some name like that.
The UK hasn't signed it "yet", I don't know about Ireland. But one of the things it calls for is to stop breeding for dogs with foreshortened faces, and Pugs are mentioned there by name. The breeders have about five years to get rid of those characteristics or face having their breed banned entirely.
It is the same rationale as wtih the c/d breeds, that it is cruel to produce dogs with breeding problems. And they don't stop there, they apply the same regulations to short legged dogs like Dachshunds and Basset Hounds, hairless breeds, giant breeds and breeds they consider too small, such as Chihuahuas.
Can you see a pattern to all this? By starting with cropping and docking they are dividing the Dog fancy until the ones who don't have cropped/docked breeds find it's the turn of their breed, and I don't think the owners of the c/d breeds will come to their aid at that point. |
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| kajukembo |
| Posted 5/15/2006 7:44:57 PM |
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Active: 05-13-2006
Posts: 19
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| Quote GraceEmily: Cropping doesn't help to prevent any kind of ear infections. It logically makes them more likely to happen as the dog's ear canal is exposed and no protection is present at the opening of the ears, as... |
well i mearly gave an observation in a real life situation not open to conjecture. logically were does a yeast infection develop best oh i'm sorry you have no medical background, i do not in vetrinai med. but reg. med. and it being open does not logicaly lead to a better chance i would go into it about the make up of the outer ear, but i don't see a need. like i said it is what i have observed i was not promoting cropping, yet i prefer to have it done so if your of a diffent opinion try to do it with out the logically ie (moron) INUENDOES it is not needed. ty |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 5/16/2006 12:50:18 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659
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Quote micdobe: Puglet, what country is it you live in?
GraceEmily, you have completely missed just about all of my points.
You are not for choice as you said in an earlier post you are for imposing your choice... |
Amen, thats what I've been trying to say. If your against it fine, but don't scold me for not opposing it and liking the look of a cropped/docked Doberman. And that is exactly what GraceEmily and Puglet are doing. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/16/2006 1:37:02 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I am quite happy during the course of this discussion to sit back and say that (rarely for me, perhaps?) I am not the aggressor here. Whatever you may think, I am not 'scolding' anybody. I've said repeatedly that at the end of the day cropping is illegal in my country, and docking is following, so I've no need to fight. You go ahead and dock and crop your dogs, I'm just pointing out that the global historical trend is heading away from surgically altering dogs.
Puglet hasn't addressed any comments to either of you directly so I think it would be polite of you to not drag her back in if she doesn't wish to take part in further discussion.
'Natural' does not equate with 'wild'. Wild dogs come about due to natural selection, domestic animals due to selective breeding. Yes, man has manipulated nature that doesn't make every Dog of a domestic breed 'unnatural', does it? I didn't say any non-standard Dobermann wasn't a Dobermann - I'm saying that if you alter the breed so that it has naturally erect ears then it is no longer the same breed because its genetic make-up is different (i.e. it has naturally rather than surgically erect ears). I was not trying to dictate what a standard tail for an undocked Dobermann should be. You said that Dobermanns would have to be selectively bred for straight tails if left undocked and I did not see what led you to that conclusion. Yet, notice, I did not accuse you of trying to dictate what the standard should be. I don't think my views are of any greater value than your own so of course I don't expect to have authority over the content of the breed standard.
You are again lumping all people you dislike into one bundle. I am not opposed to genetics of a breed - Basset Hounds, Dachshunds, etc. are naturally short (no, they're not wolves, but we don't artificially shorten the legs of every individual, do we?) so any moral issue people may have with the breeding of those or the brachycephalic dogs is nothing to do with surgical 'enhancement', so I do not personally have a problem with it until it becomes severely detrimental to the breed's overall health.
Also, do not draw assumptions about me from what you've read. You have clearly misinterpreted me as nowhere have I said that I am anti-choice.
To answer your question, I have owned a Dobermann in the past but do not claim to be an expert on the breed. Must I be to have a say in this issue? |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/16/2006 3:44:02 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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"I'm saying that if you alter the breed so that it has naturally erect ears then it is no longer the same breed because its genetic make-up is different (i.e. it has naturally rather than surgically erect ears)."
MY REPLY:
Yes it would be genetically the same breed, the genetic makeup would not be different, breeding would be done to select for the erect eared trait. I am not talking about cross breeding with other breeds. The same thing was done with the Bull Terreir which years ago had cropped ears and then the breeders bred for an erect ear since they could no longer crop in the UK.
"I am not opposed to genetics of a breed - Basset Hounds, Dachshunds, etc. are naturally short (no, they're not wolves, but we don't artificially shorten the legs of every individual, do we?) so any moral issue people may have with the breeding of those or the brachycephalic dogs is nothing to do with surgical 'enhancement', so I do not personally have a problem with it until it becomes severely detrimental to the breed's overall health."
MY REPLY:
You have completely missed my point again. What I am saying has nothing to with whether you have a problem with dwarfed or brachycephalic dogs or not. The ARs have a problem with it and based on their own document once they cropping/docking banned, they are going after the other breeds they don't like, in fact they've already started, and the breeders don't change the appearance of their dogs to suit the ARs, they they want those breeds banned. I am saying that Puglet has nothing to be complacent about.
" You have clearly misinterpreted me as nowhere have I said that I am anti-choice."
MY REPLY:
I know you haven't *said* it. I already said that you said the opposite, but everything you say *shows* that you are anti choice.
"To answer your question, I have owned a Dobermann in the past but do not claim to be an expert on the breed. Must I be to have a say in this issue?"
MR REPLY:
No you don't, but it would make your opinions more valid if you knew more about the breed than you do. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/16/2006 4:45:53 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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If you weren't trying to say that this argument has anything to do with the groups wanting to ban breeding of brachycephalic or dwarfed dogs then why mention them at all?
Puglet is not being 'complacent', she is merely not active in this thread, which is perfectly fine.
I am not anti-choice and I don't recall saying anything implying that I am and you haven't really supported your claim that I have. If you're sure there's evidence proving my being 'anti-choice', other than your own opinion, find it. I'm happy for you to go on cropping and docking, I'm just saying that many countries are now introducing legislation against it and other countries are likely to follow suit. Not bound to but likely to. Have I once in this thread said that you should not dock? Or should not crop? Choose what you like, I can't and won't stop you. That does not stop me trying to explore why people make the choices they do. If you feel that by asking such questions I am prying then you need not reply to me at all.
Expertise makes people's opinions no more valid. At all. Reliable, perhaps, but not valid. My opinion, like that of anyone else, is just as valid as your own.
If you're so adamant that to create a Dobermann with naturally erect ears would not be the creation of a new breed then, as it is purely hypothetical anyway and is unlikely ever to be achieved (most probably through lack of trying) then we could simply call it a separate category of Dobermann. One with naturally erect ears and one with naturally pendant ears. Surely that would be better than to crop every individual Dog of the Dobermann breed? |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/16/2006 10:06:20 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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"If you're so adamant that to create a Dobermann with naturally erect ears would not be the creation of a new breed then, as it is purely hypothetical anyway and is unlikely ever to be achieved (most probably through lack of trying) then we could simply call it a separate category of Dobermann. One with naturally erect ears and one with naturally pendant ears. Surely that would be better than to crop every individual Dog of the Dobermann breed?"
Why would there be a need for that? There would simply be one breed, which *is* the Doberman, is already the Doberman, and that breed would have erect ears. Naturally. You have said you think cropping is cruel. Naturally erect ears would eliminate the "cruelty" you feel is there. It would also be "natural" because the dogs would be born that way not altered by surgery. It would also be in conformance with all the standards of the country of oriign of the breed up until the last standard change which was only made because the "greens" took over the German government, not because the German Dobermann Verein wanted to have dogs with hanging ears.
The hanging ear is simply the result of certain countries being forbidden to crop. The historical, traditional, original blueprint of the Doberman called for an erect ear. Breeding a naturally erect ear would solve that problem completely.
If the UK breeders wanted to they could continue to have their drop eared dogs while other countries could have the erect eared ones.
Since you say you are for choice you could have no objection to both, some breeders breeding naturally erect ears, others breeding drop ears, and they could be shown together. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/17/2006 4:25:09 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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"Since you say you are for choice you could have no objection to both, some breeders breeding naturally erect ears, others breeding drop ears, and they could be shown together."
That would be ideal. |
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| puglet |
| Posted 5/17/2006 5:09:56 AM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
Posts: 830
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That thing about the law about banning squashed face dogs etc, i read about that a few years ago and while i do understand the concerns, ALL breeds have defects and i dont really understand how they can make them go away. How are they going to breed giant breeds to make them smaller without mixing the breeds? How can they breed pugs with long noses without mixing them with a longnosed breed. i also remeber Cavaliers being mentioned as they have boggly eyes.
Personally, i believe that pugs are the happiest, healthiest dogs about providing their weight is kept down which avoids any breathing problems. Also they should not be walked in extreme heat but apart from that, my pug has been up mountains, hiking, gone for long walks around the coast and has never had any problems.
I dont really understand how they can put these changes into action without mixing purebreds with other breeds and i cant really see that happening. |
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