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Ear cropping

GraceEmily

Posted 4/21/2006 4:56:16 PM

Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031

And I am very accepting of that, in fact I revel in it, but I don't see what harm there could possibly be in wanting to further explore people's reasons. As I said before, i enjoy debating. Those who don't want to debate should say so and not respond to me, rather than getting riled by me and becoming offensive. It is in the nature of debates to be provocative, but I am never deliberately rude or insulting.
I compared aesthetic alterations of dogs with fighting only in the context of asking how we differentiate between traditions which should be continued from traditions which shouldn't. I was not in any way comparing the potential harm done to the animals involved. It needs to stay in context to be of any value.
Out of interest, the Dog which had 7 infections in his ears, was this a Dog whose ears had been surgically cropped but not trained to stand? I think that's what was said but can't be sure.

"Even if you ask for a natural Dobes, chances are you probably won't get one."

And is that not the height of hypocrisy when done by a breeder who demands the right to dock as his freedom of 'choice'? Interestingly, those who argue for choice seem only ever to argue for their own.

And, as I feel that I in no way am 'holier than thou', any of thou, that is, I'll remind you of a quote from Montagne: 'However high up you're sitting, you're still only sitting on you ar*e.'

krfrww

Posted 4/21/2006 5:03:17 PM

Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597

Quote GraceEmily: And I am very accepting of that, in fact I revel in it, but I don't see what harm there could possibly be in wanting to further explore people's reasons. As I said before, i enjoy debating. Those who don't...

No, the Dog with 7 ear infections was actually the natural dobe. Nothing was done with his ears. The one that was cropped, the ears were trained to stand, however the original owners just got tired of taping. We fell in love with the natural Dobe when we called the rescue, the had told us that he had a sister who was in as well, but wouldn't be released yet as they were going to keep her for the taping. So we got both.

And yeah, I do think breeders should allow the prospective owner to choose cropped or docked, and some do. Some do allow that if you want natural, as long as you've put a down payment down, and they've researched and liked you, that if you wanted a natural tail, you can ask and they won't dock one. Obviously then, you wouldn't be able to pick which one you wanted, but.

And I'm not saying that you're purposefully coming off that way, but I can see what Fox means. But everybody during one subject comes off in a "holier than thou" way to people who don't want to talk it out with them. Which is the reason that you don't come off that way to me personally. Because I have explained my points and situations and reasons to you, and I do think you understand and respect that part. But for somebody who is easily offended, while it may in the end be their fault, some of it can contribute. I sound holier than thou on certain subjects as well, we ALL have that one subject. And here, it just happens to be dogs. I just don't think this is a topic for either extreme (extremely pro, or extremely anti) to really participate in, because it is a topic that hits to home for a LOT of people.

Threegoldens

Posted 4/21/2006 5:04:05 PM

Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201

You know, it is really kinda of sad that if a person wanted a dobie that wasn't dropped or docked they would have a hard time finding one. if I were to get one, i would want it natural..same with any other breed of dog. And neither would I do exotic or strange looking "hair do" cut. I think poodles with the curly cut are beautiful dogs, but i totally dislike that shaved, pompom look you see in Dog shows.

krfrww

Posted 4/21/2006 5:08:05 PM

Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597

Quote Threegoldens: You know, it is really kinda of sad that if a person wanted a dobie that wasn't dropped or docked they would have a hard time finding one. if I were to get one, i would want it natural..same with any...

It's not as hard as it may seem. A lot of rescues have many many natural Dobes. And a lot of well respected breeders, provided you have a Dog chosen pre-birth, they've checked you out pre-birth, and you put down a down payment pre-birth, quite a few breeders will allow your Dog to remain natural. Obviously if they did, they would in turn chose your Dog for you, since it's done when they're 2-3 days old.

But a lot of breeders in America, at least, breed for the "traditional" Doberman, which is cropped/docked. That's the truth about it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, some prefer cropped/docked others prefer natural and that's fine. I'm sure any well respected breeder would allow you to keep your Dog natural. Others who are well respected and reputable might not. Just a matter of finding one that did.

GraceEmily

Posted 4/21/2006 5:19:58 PM

Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031

Poodles look their most beautiful when in the lamb cut - shaved so they've got about an inch length fur all over.
It is sad that some breeders will go to any lengths to dock all their pups, no matter if someone has paied for a Dog to be left undocked. It's sad that old ladies in wheelchairs will insult anyone who shows a Boxer or dobe with a tail (I've seen it done).
It should get easier for me to acquire a dobe with a full tail soon as the ban has come into place in the UK.

Dobiegurl313

Posted 4/21/2006 9:15:38 PM

Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659

"If, like in the argument for the Dobes ear cropping, criminals could grab onto their ears then why aren't Rotties ears cropped?"

Rotties nor German shepherds were created to be PP dogs, so cropping a Rottie back then would have served no purpose because they were not made to be PP dogs. Dobie's were made for a specific reason which was personal protection work. Breeds like Rotties were made to guard sheep and livestock so the need to crop was irrelevant. You cannot compare the argument of people cropping Dobies ears to Rottweilers because they are two seperate dogs, made for two different reasons. Now, they have transformed Rotties and GSD's into fenomenal PP dogs but that was not their initial purpose, whereas the Doberman was.

foxfire_ga79

Posted 4/21/2006 9:25:55 PM

Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801

Quote Dobiegurl313: "If, like in the argument for the Dobes ear cropping, criminals could grab onto their ears then why aren't Rotties ears cropped?"

Rotties nor German shepherds were created to be PP dogs, so cropping...

Exactly! That's the point I was trying to make. Too bad I can't say things with fewer words.

maoseger1010

Posted 4/21/2006 9:30:48 PM

Forum Moderator
5001 - 10000 posts

Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6601

Quote GraceEmily: "Well what ever, those who crop and doc always will and those who don't won't. End of story."

Unlikely, actually. Legislature against cropping and docking is being brought into force in many countries,...

I'm not sure I agree with you on if the US will ever ban cropping and docking. Ok it could happen but I don't think it will in my lifetime anyway. We have many freedoms here that "many countries" do not have. We do things here that many coutries frown on but we still do them and our people still believe in doing them. Of course I could be wrong.

MaryAndDobes

Posted 4/21/2006 11:33:21 PM

Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 399

We're talking about a breed that certainly is not right for every person, a breed that may contain a range of temperaments and drives within the litter. A breeder can't leave all the tails on because you want a natural one, and I certainly wouldn't want a breeder making a puppy choice for me at 3 days of age knowing nothing about the puppy's temperament and suitability for the intended home.

What happens when the breeder leaves the one natural for you and it happens to be a poor fit for your home and your intentions?

I know a very reputable Doberman breeder that left a show prospect uncropped because it was supposed to be shipped to Australia. Well, it ended up missing a couple of teeth and was therefore not suitable for showing. The breeder wasn't going to send it to Australia at that point and have it there representing their breeding program. So, it had to get its ears done much later than the norm which is harder on the puppy physically but ensured it would be more easily sold here.

Dobiegurl313

Posted 4/22/2006 12:06:47 AM

Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659

There's always BYB's and puppymills who will leave their dogs natural, but if I was a reputable breeder I wouldn't take the chance.

Threegoldens

Posted 4/22/2006 12:22:44 AM

Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201

AS far as I am concerned puppy mills are the next thing to a sin. They are wrong from the git go and no way would I support one so i could have Dog like I wanted.

Okay, as for BYB, you could consider my Dad a BYB----50 years ago. he bred 3 litters of English Setter pups. Back then most rural and probably most city folks --except in the show world-- knew about hip and knee problems, etc, etc. When my Dad bred, he chose great quail dogs with great temperaments. He had the most gentle Enlish Setter that lived to be 15 and we never once heard him growl and he was a top quail Dog and family dog. he did come from Field cahmpion stock, and was a gift to my dad from a doctor friend. Daddy didn't care about papers and never sent in the paper work.

The females were also top quial dogs, great family dogs. Mack's Puppies were in great demand--but Daddy didn't breed him until he was 10 years old so only bred him the 3 times. We kept two of the pups and they lived up to every ounce of expectation, and as far as we know, so did the others.

Dobiegurl313

Posted 4/22/2006 12:31:45 AM

Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659

"AS far as I am concerned puppy mills are the next thing to a sin. They are wrong from the git go and no way would I support one so i could have Dog like I wanted."

I was being sarcastic although puppymills do leave their dogs natural because surgery and docking is not cheap.

micdobe

Posted 5/15/2006 12:50:23 PM

Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137

Hi all,
I have had Dobermans for nearly 30 years, all have been cropped/docked. I live in the U.S.

micdobe

Posted 5/15/2006 12:51:57 PM

Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137

I prefer the cropped/docked look of the Doberman bred to the U.S. standard. I think having the undocked tails would bother me less than having uncropped ears because I don't like hanging ears, period, never have.

The reason cropping has gotten banned before docking is that in general cropping has been considered the crueler procedure, since it is done when the puppy is older and requires anesthesia. It has nothing to do with people being "more fussed" with ears than tails.

micdobe

Posted 5/15/2006 12:52:53 PM

Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137

Undocked Doberman tails do not look like Pointer tails, which is what I thought they would look like. Most of them curl, some of the curl tightly like husky tails and they are carried curled over the back, a very strange look on a shorthaired dog. I suppose attempts could be made to breed them into straight tails.

As for creating a separate breed that looked "just like" Dobermans but with erect ears, what possible reason would there be for doing that? Why not just breed Dobermans themselves to have erect ears? Or at least buttom or rose ears, are already present in the breed. Quite a few uncropped Dobermans have button or rose ears, and occasionally one has erect ears, altho most have hanging hound type ears.

micdobe

Posted 5/15/2006 12:54:16 PM

Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137

The ears are often too large, however, and there would need to be breeding for smaller ears. This would be acceptable, but by breeders focusing on breeding for straight tails and smaller ears, they would lose focus on things like correct fronts and rears, which are functional issues for a working breed.

Part of the reason Doberman lovers love them is their unique characters, so creating a breed that "looked" like them but wasn't them would be self defeating. You aren't giving much credit to the breed or its owners by suggesting that would be a "cure".

micdobe

Posted 5/15/2006 12:54:53 PM

Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137

I saw a post from someone called Grace Emily I think it was? If you want an undocked/uncropped Dobermans there is a woman in the UK now breeding them, her name is Christine, I forget her last name, but her kennel prefix is Kerioak. You might contact her if you want one.

But if you are refusing to get a Doberman until you can get one that is undocked then you are doing the same thing you accuse Dobiegurl of doing.

The Doberman is not "natural". It is a man made breed, as are all breeds. In nature all canids have erect ears and long tails and longer coats than Dobermans have.

Some Dog breeds look more like the ancestral wolf than others, Huskies for example. Dobermans have been manipulated by man to be a long way from wolves in appearance. As have many other breeds, some of them much farther away, like Pugs for instance. I know that the extreme animal rights groups consider breding brachycephalic dogs to be cruel. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if after they got cropping and docking banned everywhere, or actually in the countries in which they operate, they turned their attention to the "cruelty" of producing Pugs, Boston Terriers, Boxers, Bulldogs, Bullmastiffs, etc. Not to mention the "cruelty" of breeding dogs with massive coats like Poodles, Komondorok, Pulik, etc, which mat and cord and can cause great discomfort to the dogs. It isn't going to be just the cropped and docked breeds they are going to come after.

I didn't used to believe this myself, it sounded too insane, but I called PETA and talked to them and what they want is the elimination of domestic animals for any purpose, and that includes as pets. They want ll animals to be living in the "wild", like there was much wild left, and not with humans, because they take the view that humans exploit them. I don't think they really care anything at all about animals, given the news that came out last year about all the animals PETA euthanized under false pretenses. PETA and groups like them are behind all this push to get c/d banned, and I don't doubt they'll come after other breeds next. They want people to stop owning Dobermans, and many people have stopped owning and breeding Dobermans in Germany ,the breeds own country of origin.

GraceEmily

Posted 5/15/2006 2:26:09 PM

Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031

There are many groups other than PETA which oppose cropping and docking. I find some of PETA's policies, such as those you mentioned, abhorrent but I don't think they're wrong concerning docking and cropping.
I have yet to understand how anyone can like a breed, yet dislike individuals unless they have been 'enhanced'. In fact I don't think that you can like the breed that much if you think it needs surgical 'improvement'.
As I said before, I would happily rescue a Dog or adopt a Dog that was docked and cropped (though I believe there are none cropped in Britain) but wouldn't pay to have cropping done myself (if I lived elsewhere) and wouldn't buy from a breeder who does dock. This isn't to do with how the Dog looks, it is to do with morality. I don't think the same can be said for the opposite side - I don't think you can be morally opposed to leaving a Dog as it was born: only aesthetically.
The purpose of creating a breed like the Dobermann except for in its ears would be, of course, that alteration of every single Dog of that breed wasn't necessary. Alter a breed by all means, create a new one rather than surgically changing each and every single member of an existing breed. It would be a similar situation to the Papillon and the Phalene - same conformation except for the ears. I don't think in any breeding for tail and ears the rest of the Dog should be overlooked - the health of the animal should be paramount.
If I made reference to a Dobe's tail being like a Pointer's then it was only due to thickness and hair covering, not the way it hangs. Dobe's tails as far as I've seen have curled up over their backs. There's no reason why they should be bred to have straight tails, in my opinion - the curled tails look beautiful.
There are likely to be more kennels like Kerioak soon, due to the partial ban on docking in the UK. I hope to see more dogs with their beautiful tails. As for the ears I'm not really a fighter in this issue as it's been resolved in my country. I know there are pressure groups in favour of a ban in the US, though, and I would offer them my moral support and advice if possible if ever I was asked for it. Until then I don't think it's my place to try and intervene in the US. I'm just pointing out that the global historical trend is in favour of banning; cropping first then docking, so people who want Dobes or other traditionally cropped/docked breeds should be prepared to see changes or to try and prevent changes occuring.

GraceEmily

Posted 5/15/2006 2:26:38 PM

Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031