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Ear cropping |
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| Rambaldi1 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 3:45:10 AM |
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Active: 05-27-2005
Posts: 779
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| Quote foxfire_ga79: That's the first one I've seen, ever. And it looks like a Weimeraner. (Sp?) Very pretty and I could easily love it just like any other dog....But that is NOT what I think of when I think Dobe. *Sigh* |
Fox, take a look at these photos. They better show what Dobes looks like with natural ears and a docked tail. Just click 'next' in the corner of the white box to see more photos.
http://www.dobermann.co.za/breeders/galleries/dogs... |
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| Rambaldi1 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:24:19 AM |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 6:47:01 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Why there seems to be an opinion that opposing docking and cropping and supporting other animal charities and good causes are mutually exclusive, I don't know. It is perfectly possible to do both these things simultaneously, thus the argument 'go fight a better cause' is a pointless one. People who campaign against docking already are fighting the other causes. The comparison between cropping/docking and fighting went only as far as to point out that they are both traditions. How are we deciding which traditions are good and should be upheld whereas others should be stopped? What criteria do we have for deciding between good or bad traditions?
While I cannot boast as impressive a record as Threegoldens, I can and do help out with as many animal and human charities as possible, despite being a full time student and not financially independent. Doing that doesn't stop me campaigning about this issue as well though!
I'm not saying that all people who dock and crop are barbarians and I'm not saying that I'm in any way better than you because I disagree with it.
I've also refrained from insulting people, however passionate my argument is and however frustrated I am. I do not think it unreasonable to ask the same courtesy be extended to me. Thus, no, I will not 'go screw myself' and leave you alone, Dobiegurl. You entered into a debate knowing full well that I argue the opposite opinion to yourself and should then realise that if you have no further points to make in this discussion and do not wish to answer any more questions, say so and leave the thread.
Rambaldi, those dogs are beautiful. I especially like the first Boxer and the second Rottweiler. Incidentally, why were Rottweilers originally docked? Their tails don't look flimsy and likely to split. |
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| puglet |
| Posted 4/21/2006 7:04:39 AM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
Posts: 830
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| Quote GraceEmily: Why there seems to be an opinion that opposing docking and cropping and supporting other animal charities and good causes are mutually exclusive, I don't know. It is perfectly possible to do both these... |
Some people obviously just haven't got the ability or the vocabulary to have a debate without resorting to abuse. Ithought the whole point of the forum was to hear other peoples opinion and debate. Obviously i was wrong and there are just some topics that poeple are NOT allowed to disagree on.
One interesting thought ive had is this, ive always wanted a french bulldog, but they cost around 2000, so my idea is to take my pug in to get his ears cropped so they stand up and then he'l look just like a french bulldog! Thats ok isnt it? Because its my right to have my Dog looking just how i want, depite putting him through unnecessary anatheisia, pain and discomfort. (I hope u all realise im kidding, but still, wheres the difference?) |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 7:14:10 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Personally I see no difference! You may even be encouraged to go for it by some other members!
It truly saddens me that people so often and so easily resort to petty name calling and abuse. I enjoy debating and, at the end of the day, I'm not here to try and make enemies for myself. I'm just interested in discussing things. If anyone finds themself incapable, for whatever reason, of debating controversial matters civilly, they should avoid such issues, as I'm sure those who began the discussion had no intention of causing quarrels. |
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| Rambaldi1 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 8:13:03 AM |
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Active: 05-27-2005
Posts: 779
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" why were Rottweilers origionally docked"
I have no idea. I don't know what they were origionally bred for but I know they were used as police dogs for a long time, some still are. So in that case, why are their tails docked but the ears left natural? If, like in the argument for the Dobes ear cropping, criminals could grab onto their ears then why aren't Rotties ears cropped?  |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 8:15:00 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6723
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"Obviously i was wrong and there are just some topics that poeple are NOT allowed to disagree on."
Clearly you are right. Those who believe in docking and cropping are made out to be barbaric and cruel. While those who don't support it are made out to be foward thinking and saintly. Those who support it proffer their right to alter their Dog as they see fit and those who don't feel they stand for the rights of the Dog not to be altered in the name of humane treatment.
Frankly this post has gotten to the point were each party is just patting themselves on the back and saying "see how good we are and how bad they are".
Well what ever, those who crop and doc always will and those who don't won't. End of story. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 9:07:08 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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"Well what ever, those who crop and doc always will and those who don't won't. End of story."
Unlikely, actually. Legislature against cropping and docking is being brought into force in many countries, including my own. This historical trend is likely to continue, meaning that cropping will, eventually, become illegal in the US, probably followed by docking, unless someone comes up with some very good arguments in favour of their continuation.
This did not start out as an argument, it was not originally intended to abuse or offend anyone and was never a case of anti-crop and -dock people having a 'holier than thou' attitude. It was a discussion about the reasons for docking and cropping. Unfortunately, it just didn't stay that way. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 12:59:26 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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Quote GraceEmily: "Well what ever, those who crop and doc always will and those who don't won't. End of story."
Unlikely, actually. Legislature against cropping and docking is being brought into force in many countries,... |
And you're very happy and smug that people's rights are being taken away. But what about the dogs' rights you ask? We spend $billions every year on our dogs, we practically WORSHIP our dogs. Maybe you'll tell me I'm a bad mother because I took my daughter to get her ears pierced when she was only 2 and didn't have the capacity to make her own choice about it? That was only cosmetic, has lots of risks that go along with it.
Rambaldi, those dogs don't look like they should IMO, but they don't look bad either. Thank you for the links at least, I've been curious since this whole thread started.
Oh and Puglet, when I lived in Texas (long long ago lol) my mom and I saw a Pug with cropped ears. It certainly didn't fit the breed standard, but it was cute! And it didn't look like a Frenchie. It looked like a Pug with a Boxer's ears. 
And when I said agree to disagree, I didn't intend for the anti's to keep on going and insulting pro's. Anti's started this debate--AGAIN--And pro's should not have to keep on defending themselves. Just because nobody got called names doesn't mean they weren't insulted. I find it very disturbing that someone would call someone else a Dog hater for make their Dog prettier in their own opinion. Push for your laws, and quit rubbing it in to people that you think they are barbaric. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 1:18:02 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Again, we never said they were barbaric. And no-one was called a Dog hater because they made their Dog look prettier in their opinion, there was an insinuation made in response to someone claiming they "HATED" floppy-eared dogs. The person called themself a dog-hater before they were ever accused of it. Said person then began to use offensive language when no insult had previously been made.
Also, pros should only have to defend themselves if they're being attacked, which I don't believe they have been. Questions have been asked, yes. Personally, the only reason I'm in this debate is out of curiosity about people's reasons and justifications for cropping. It's already illegal in my country, and now so is docking, so I'm not a fighter (except againt the exemption made in that ban).
If any pro's feel they have been attacked by myself then, as I had no intention to do so, I will not extend my apologies. If you thought I was insulting, attacking or deliberately offending you, you were mistaken.
The undocked and uncropped dogs look beautiful and are exactly as they 'should' look - it's just not the look you happen to be used to. Personally, I think leaving their tails as they should be just means there's more of them to love! |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/21/2006 1:58:03 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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That is the first time I have ever seen rotties with tails and I like them. I have seen uncropped boxers--our former preacher had one and Rocky was adorable. Also our son's friend has a white one with uncropped ears and it is also adorable. A friend of mine had an uncropped dane and I think she was cuter than ones with cropped ears. She was the first I had ever seen. They seem to have more expression when they can tilt their head and cock those ears.
I have not seen anyone called barbaric. Barbaric is poeple like the ones that tossed the Dog on the bbq pit, doused the puppy with acid, etc. I have seen questions asked and not answered. A few were answered. So i would like to repeat some of the questions and maybe some of you have the answers.
Why is that springers, brittneys, cockers tails were cut off so they would not damage them in the field, yet English, irish, and Gordon setters were not. They have just as rough a terrain to cover. So to me docking to protect the tail doesn't seem logical. It would seem if that were the case, all the field breeds would have tails docked.
And then there is the pointers--some breds have HALF their tail cut of, other breeds none. What is the purpose in this? If the above mentioned dogs need all their tail cut off to protect it, why is half a tail left on these pointer breeds, and even entire tails on others?
Okay, dobies and I guess rotties tails were removed so crooks, etc couldn't grabe them. Why not the shepherd's tail? Dobies ears were cropped so the crooks couldn't grab them, what about the rottie's ears?
Why were danes and boxer's ears cropped, boxer' tails docked? Some breeds doing police work are docked and cropped, some are only docked, some are left natural. See, none of this is logical to me and that is why I do not understand it.
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 2:12:06 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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| Quote Threegoldens: That is the first time I have ever seen rotties with tails and I like them. I have seen uncropped boxers--our former preacher had one and Rocky was adorable. Also our son's friend has a white one with... |
Setters and Spaniels have thicker, longer coats that serve as protection. |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/21/2006 2:55:32 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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But that is just it--Springers, Brittneys, and Cockers are all spaniels and have long thick coats and no tails, English pointers have short fur and full tail. That is where the logic leaves me.
Oh, one explination someone once gave on another board was because of burrs in the tails. AGain, not logical as the setters also have furry tails that collect burrs.
Let me tell you, me wanting things logical drives my family nuts and they sometimes call me Mr. Spock (off the old Star Trek TV show). I don't think I am QUITE that bad, tho. LOL. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 3:35:48 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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Quote Threegoldens: But that is just it--Springers, Brittneys, and Cockers are all spaniels and have long thick coats and no tails, English pointers have short fur and full tail. That is where the logic leaves me.
Oh,... |
Therapy and meds can very easily treat obsessive-compulsive disorder. Hehehe, kidding.
And I didn't invent the breeds, I didn't decide who got to keep their tail or not, so I don't know what they were thinking. You named off Irish Gordens and English, they have their tails. It might also depend on what part of the world the dogs are from. The German pointers...Maybe burrs and things are worse there than they are here. I've never been there so I don't know. I didn't know though that pointers got docked until this discussion was brought up, I've always only seen them with their full tails.
But I CAN answer for all the terriers that get docked. When they go to ground, if they get into trouble and have to turn and run the hunters don't want a tail there for the vermin to start gnawing on. It's not like they can zigzag all over the place to dodge the other animal, it's just a straight shoot through the burrow.
Maybe you should read up on these breeds on websites that specialize in them instead of coming here and asking people to guess for you. None of us in here knows everything about every single breed. Visit akc.org, there's alot of information there. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:28:06 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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No-one's asking anyone to know everything, but I would expect that if people have such strong opinions as to why we should continue this tradition, they should have some clue as to why these traditions began. There's no harm with anyone trying to get that kind of information on here - it's a forum for sharing opinions and knowledge. Or are there some things which should be made taboo as some can't help but feel offended by discussions about them? There is a major inconsistency in the reasons given for docking. If the argument that docking is done to prevent thin tails from ripping is given then it falls apart when we come to the Rottweiler, because they have a tail similar to the Labrador's, which we know from the response to 'why aren't all hunting dogs docked' have thick, sturdy tails which don't need docking. But then someone very clever came up with the argument that Rotties are docked so people don't confuse them for Labradors and get bitten (lovely bit of breed bias there as well). And of course when discussing tradition people don't mention that part of how this docking fashion started was due to taxation - or avoidance of it. That's one of the aspects of the fashionable tradition that get's left out.
And as for cropping, we know that as soon as it lost its practical purpose it became a fashion and no more. It makes dogs 'prettier', thus more fashionable, though it's never phrased that way. So instead of medical reasons now for cropping, we get excuses such as 'it improves their hearing' or 'it prevents infection', despite evidence to the contrary.
And god help us if MPs start voicing their opinions as, according to one of Britain's gems, 'dogs like being docked and cropped'. Well bang goes the theory that it hurts or that they feel nothing, it is in fact pleasurable to have bits cut off! |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:28:57 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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That became a tirade somewhere in the middle. Sorry about that. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:39:42 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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| Quote GraceEmily: That became a tirade somewhere in the middle. Sorry about that. |
Yea and none of the rest of us have ranted on this thread. Don't worry about it.
You get lots of different information because lots of different people are trying to answer the same question. Lots of different people with different breeds in different locations whose breeds were cropped or docked for different reasons. How can you expect any consistency? Springer Spaniels and Doberman are not from the same country, how can you expect them to be docked for the same reason? Here in the US, there's no tax for docked or undocked dogs so that's not even a deciding factor here. How about you guys just accept the answers you are given as all being legitimate. I think if people were going to lie and make things up it would have happened by now and it would be obvious that it was nonsence. If you think about it breed by breed, country by country, I'm sure it will look logical. But you also have to actually think about it. Right now it's obvious that no matter what is said, it's the wrong answer to you. |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:40:31 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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Hey foxfire, i wish i was complusive about my house keeping. But then, maybe my housekeeping is based on logic. I can sweep twice a day, run the vacuum 3 times a day, and there is still Dog hair . So why bust my butt spending all day doing those things when it gets me nowhere. Once a day is enough! When I am here along (hubby is cross country truck driver), I have like a bowl or cereal or toast and coffee for breakfast, a sandwich and chips for lunch with a drink and then either a Healthy choice TV dinner with a salad or i fix a meat and veggies and salad. Logic tells me to just wash dishes at the end of the day, not after each meal. It would take a week to get enough to fill the dishwasher so when he is gone, i only use it if i have the kids and families over to eat.
I think I will skip the meds and therapy or I may start doing dish 3 times a day and running the vacuum 3 times a day, etc. Hee Hee. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:41:30 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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we get excuses such as 'it improves their hearing' or 'it prevents infection', despite evidence to the contrary.
Um, in my personal experience, my Dobes that were cropped have actually had less ear infections. Whether it's true for every dog, who knows...
But when I was a kid (about maybe 8-9 or so) we had two Dobes. 1 cropped/docked, 1 only docked. Both were litter mates that we got at the rescue. The owners cropped the dogs ears, and then got tired of them while they were healing, and took them to a rescue. So we took the dogs in.
Both dogs ate the same food, had the same amount of time outside, neither had allergies, etc etc. Everything was the same except the dog. The Dog with the cropped ears, got 0 ear infections in the entire time we had the Dog (13 years). The other one had 7 ear infections, in the 12 years that we had him.
A lot of people here HAVE admitted that they crop and dock their dogs purely out of looks. However, docking is done when the dogs are at the breeders, and that's the breeders pretty much sole discretion since most want to continue to the traditional look. Even if you ask for a natural Dobes, chances are you probably won't get one.
And lots of things are being asked for the people who crop ears. Like why 47328478293423 other dogs aren't docked, or why 742389749283478239 other dogs aren't cropped, which NONE of us can answer. I've answered the question that "Each Dog is different, had different uses for the same job, and maybe when they switched dogs they realized such and such wasn't needed, hence wasn't done." but apparently that's not an answer.
You may not be purposely trying to insult anybody here, and to me you've been rather nice and I haven't taken anything you've personally (Grace) said, however some of your comments are pretty "holier than thou" attitude. Not saying that's bad, I'm sure I can come off the same way about certain subjects, but you can still be stepping on toes either way.
This is a very iffy subject, and it's best for extremes to stay away from it. Other people have different opinions, and some people in the world (not saying you) just don't accept that, and that's fine that's their life. However, they shouldn't be in this topic.
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/21/2006 4:41:48 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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Earlier you dismissed my comparing cropping/docking to spaying/neutering (because of anesthesia), based on spaying is for the health of the dog. That's great and all, but then you went and compared cropping/docking to the Dog fighting/bull baiting, traditionally. Surely you can see the hypocriticalness in that. Again, not insulting or anything.
At the end of the day, some people tend to focus on smaller issues. Like how people get this done solely for looks. But it's been mentioned MANY times now, by me and others, that the main reason we crop/dock our dogs is because of looks. And at the end of the day, that is still our decision and our choice, and it will be until it becomes banned. And at the end of the day, everybody should accept that everybody has different opinions. |
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