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Ear cropping |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/19/2006 3:38:56 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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Actually a Dog with lop sided ears, like one stand straight, the other flops a little at the tip are rather cute and endearing to me, I guess because I am not a perfectionist. If so , I would not have my dogs. The older one has white on his feet, an AKC show ring no-no(he is registared) KayCee has very crooked teeth in the bottom, another AKC show ring no-no. And of course Honey with the perfect teeth is a mix, and no AKC dog.
As far as I know, German Shepherds have worked with police and military forever also. if they cut dobies tails off so the crook or whatever couldn't get hold ot if, why didn't they do the same to shepherds.
Also bloodhounds were used to track escaped convicts, etc, although now I think they are used more for finding lost people. But their ears and tail were not cut off. And lord knows they had enough ear to grab.
And one question I don't understand. Why would a person WANT to grab hold of a police dog's ears or tail unless it was an attack Dog and it had hold of the person. In that case, i don't much see them being able to grab the tail, and I do think if they did want to, they could still get hold of the ears, even cropped.
That very well could have been the belief when this process was started (but what about the shepherds tails) but then at one time people believed the world was flat. AT one time tomatoes were believed to be poison. Just goes to show things can and should change. |
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| APBTlover |
| Posted 4/19/2006 3:45:57 PM |
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Active: 08-15-2005
Posts: 2324
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| Quote Threegoldens: Actually a Dog with lop sided ears, like one stand straight, the other flops a little at the tip are rather cute and endearing to me, I guess because I am not a perfectionist. If so , I would not have... |
Bloodhounds ears are not cropped because the ears actually help them to hold/get a scent better for when they track. |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 4/19/2006 4:27:59 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 423
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"you plan to breed Dobermanns in the future and say that you'll dock and crop all Puppies that you breed - what if someone approaches you, pays for their Dog before its birth and asks that it be left natural? Will you refuse to leave the Dog natural and say they should go to a different breeder?"
Speaking for myself as a Doberman breeder, I make it clear beforehand that docking and cropping is something that is included with each of my Puppies. I have had requests for natural ears. They have to go elsewhere. Why would I take money from someone before the birth of Puppies when our views obviously clash?
It is very unusual to find a responsible and reputable Doberman breeder that will leave a puppy natural. There are only a few that will consider it. There have been some who have done so by request only to regret it later when the puppy gets returned and then is very hard to place because of the way it looks.
I am fairly active with rescue, too, and I see the natural ones waiting and waiting and waiting for new homes, getting overlooked because they don't suit the image that most people have of a Doberman.
When people make their request for natual ears, they often say it's so that the Dog looks less menacing and less like a Doberman. Well, excuse me - I'm breeding Dobermans to look like Dobermans and that includes docking and cropping. They are my Puppies first, and I'm responsible for them forever. They represent me and my breeding program and my view of what a Doberman should look like so of course, I want them to look like a traditional Doberman.
Since I take responsibility for them forever, I want them to have the best chance of being rehomed quickly in the future if ever required. With my experience in rescue, I know their best chance of being rehomed quickly is for them to be docked and cropped. |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/19/2006 4:35:43 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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| Quote APBTlover: Bloodhounds ears are not cropped because the ears actually help them to hold/get a scent better for when they track. |
I have seen that on TV. Also coon hounds, black & tans, redbones, etc also have those long ears for that same reason. One one of the police shows, or possibily it was Unsolved Mysteries, was the story of a blood houndtracking a little kidnapped girl WHO WAS IB A CAR, but he could still pick up her scent. He followed on the IS and then off a ramp and finally he was in a state of collapse. His handler made him stop. The little girls body was found on just a short distance from where the Dog (I can't remember his name) was forced to stop. I the little's family ha since donated bloodhounds (in honor of this Dog who has since died) for tracking missing people.
I was just pointing out that bloodie's ears were not cut off to prevent the convicts or killers from getting hold of their ears. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:07:40 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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| Quote Threegoldens: Actually a Dog with lop sided ears, like one stand straight, the other flops a little at the tip are rather cute and endearing to me, I guess because I am not a perfectionist. If so , I would not have... |
Maybe because the Doberman has much more little body fat than the GSD?
Also, if the GSD has been working with police and military for forever, the Doberman has been working with them forever and 3 lifetimes.
Dobermans were one of the first dogs to work with police and military, but they got shuffled out and replaced by GSD's, because GSD's are more cold resistant - whereas Doberman's aren't. Doberman's couldn't stand working in the cold areas of the world, or on the cold seasons of the year, so they got replaced by GSD's.
For one, GSD's ears weren't cropped because they are naturally erect. It's easier to grabbed a floppy ear as opposed to an erect ear. For two, just because they did it to a breed that was there before, doesn't mean they're going to do it to EVERY breed that is used for that job - and to use that as your argument for why you shouldn't crop, or that cropping was purely done for looks back then, means nothing. 2 and 2 doesn't equal 5. No matter how you go to solve the problem.
Maybe they realized that docking a tail wouldn't really stop a guy from grabbing a stump? Or the fact that docking the tail made no difference? Hence to why GSD's don't have a traditional docked tail.
Do you expect the entire world to then say "oh well since the docked tail has no purpose for Police or Military we should just excuse what a traditional Doberman looks like, because there's a chance that it MAY be banned in my area." If so, you are COMPLETELY unreasonable and this will be my last post to you on this topic. If you allow people to like a cropped or docked Doberman, while having an unreceptive opinion, then you will get no where trying to get people to disliked cropped Dobes. People like what they like, accept it.
Secondly on that subject, tail docking and ear cropping will NEVER become illegal everywhere, because not everybody sees it as barbaric. If you do that's fine, but let others have their own opinions on the issue. It's not barbaric, I will do it for as long as I'm allowed by law, because I love Dobermans. Just because a few people dislike ear cropping and tail docking, it doesn't mean I'm going to turn away from a breed that I have loved since I was 2, just so I don't have to get a tail docked and an ear cropped to appease you. Nobody will. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:28:24 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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| Quote MaryAndDobes: "you plan to breed Dobermanns in the future and say that you'll dock and crop all Puppies that you breed - what if someone approaches you, pays for their Dog before its birth and asks that it be left natural?... |
I made that comment due to Dobiegurl's insistence that docking and cropping was simply her personal preference, while she did not begrudge anyone else their own preference. On a broader scale, I'm questioning the argument that breeders in favour of docking and cropping think that people should have their own choice as to whether their Dog is docked and cropped or not. Obviously this argument is weakened if the same breeder who argues that they are merely 'pro-choice' then turns around and says they will not allow any of their dogs to be left natural - in which case are they arguing for 'choice' only so long as it's the choice they would make?
As for the Dobermann not looking 'like a Dobermann' unless it's cropped and docked, I have to take issue with that only on the level that a Dobermann, aside from beign a wonderful and beautiful breed, is a collection of genes - it has its own genetic blueprint.
The 'look' to which you and others are referring is not the look of 'the Dobermann', but the look of an environmentally altered Dobermann. It may be the traditionaly look, that doesn't make it the look of 'the Dobermann'. As a further example, my huamn genetic blueprint is not to have pink hair and blue fingernails and, though I could alter that, the 'human' look would remain exactly as it was before.
Would it be impossible to breed a Dog almost exactly the same as a Dobermann but with naturally erect ears? |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:34:10 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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"Would it be impossible to breed a Dog almost exactly the same as a Dobermann but with naturally erect ears?"
Unfortunately, it probably is. I wouldn't have a problem with a Doberman having floppy ears, the reason I don't much care for them, personally, is because they're much too big for a Doberman's head. If they had small floppy ears like my Lucester does, I'd probably leave the Dobe natural.
The tail I don't care about. Natural or docked, either are fine by me. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:39:05 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Quote krfrww: "Would it be impossible to breed a Dog almost exactly the same as a Dobermann but with naturally erect ears?"
Unfortunately, it probably is. I wouldn't have a problem with a Doberman having floppy... |
That's so unusual. I would have thought people would be more fussed about the tail than the ears - I thought that that would be why the cropping has been banned before the docking in every country where they're illegal (or, of course just the cropping having been made illegal).
So do you think Dobes should be just bred to have smaller ears? Or have another breed created that's the same but with smaller ears that don't require cropping? I think they look perfect with their ears being a bit too big - same as their feet when they're Puppies. But that's just what I'm used to, obviously. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:44:00 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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| Quote GraceEmily: That's so unusual. I would have thought people would be more fussed about the tail than the ears - I thought that that would be why the cropping has been banned before the docking in every country where... |
Their feet are so friggin' adorable!
Personally, I think Doberman's temperament wise, are perfect. They're dolls, I love them. Look wise I only have a few problems. I'm just not a fan of hound ears. I never have been, I don't even find hounds to be cute dogs.
The tail, I like dogs tails, to be honest. Especially furry ones like GSD's, I grab (well not really grab, but like petgrab) tails whenever I pet my dog, that's why I don't mind them on Dobes. Same with other dogs that are traditionally docked... Boxers, etc. I do prefer the look of a docked tail, but coming down to it, I don't mind the tail if they have one/if the breeder preferred one/etc. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 5:51:27 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Quote krfrww: Their feet are so friggin' adorable!
Personally, I think Doberman's temperament wise, are perfect. They're dolls, I love them. Look wise I only have a few problems. I'm just not a fan of hound ears.... |
"Their feet are so friggin' adorable!"
I agree 100%!
I'm still surprised that you're not fussed about the tails as much as the ears. Personally, I can't imagine what an undocked but cropped Dobe would look like! If you bred a Dobe to have smaller ears, could you then refine that further to create the semi-erect ear that Manchester terriers have? I know it would take decades, but it could be done? |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 6:00:08 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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Quote GraceEmily: "Their feet are so friggin' adorable!"
I agree 100%!
I'm still surprised that you're not fussed about the tails as much as the ears. Personally, I can't imagine what an undocked but cropped Dobe... |
Truthfully I have no idea. I just know that if Dobermans are bred to have a different thing about them (IE ears) that something will be a miss. Chances are personality :(.
But yeah, ears I definitely prefer military crop. But if I had a Dobe with a natural tail, and the Dobe didn't have big ears, I'd leave his ears natural as well, even though I do prefer cropped. Unless his ears were giving me problems, then I would crop.
But if the tail was already docked, I'd crop either way because a natural head with a docked tail doesn't look right either. It's kind of an all or nothing type of deal with me. But the tail to me, adds no attractive value. With a tail or without one, the Dog looks the same to me. However with ears, big floppy ears can change the entire dynamic of a dog's head, which they do with a Doberman. And I find ears that allow you to see a Doberman's face, makes them more attractive to me. Because I love the Doberman's face, and head shape, and it's size in general. And their big ears really tend to cover that up. That's why I wouldn't mind leaving natural if they had smaller ears, that covered less and created less of a "natural" shadow. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 6:05:36 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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Grace, I think your last statement summed up this entire argument. Once it becomes illegal everywhere and law abiding citizens actually follow the rules, I'm certain people are going to start seeing things in a new light. I don't like the thought of natural Dobes most likely because I've never SEEN a natural Dobe. I always loved Boxers with cropped ears, but the very first time I saw a natural one I thought it looked just as nice as cropped.
But still, I wish it would stay as a choice. I've still not seen anyone give proof that cropping and docking, when done correctly, have caused PERMANENT or long term harm. And to quote what someone else said in here several months ago---Natural uncut Dobes seem to resemble Black And Tan Coonhounds. A beautiful breed, but not quite as stunning and majestic as a Dobe.
The look will begin to grow on people once there's no choice left, that's inevitable because we love dogs unconditionally, but it will be sad to see such a strong tradition get tossed aside.
I think we should rearrange our priorities and those who don't like cropping dogs don't HAVE to change their mind, and people who want to keep tradition don't HAVE to lose something that's so obviously important to them. Until there is proof that it's all bad or all good, right now it's ALL OPINION.  |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 6:11:41 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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Fox, do you mean you've never seen one in person? Or just never seen one in general? If it's the latter
http://www.karpuz.com/hayvanlar/doberman.jpg There's a natural dobie. They're still very cute and adorable, but that quote was a great one. They're not quite "the" look most Dobe owners know and love. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 7:48:44 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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That's the first one I've seen, ever. And it looks like a Weimeraner. (Sp?) Very pretty and I could easily love it just like any other dog....But that is NOT what I think of when I think Dobe. *Sigh* |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 11:26:20 PM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659
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"To Dobiegurl, you plan to breed Dobermanns in the future and say that you'll dock and crop all Puppies that you breed - what if someone approaches you, pays for their Dog before its birth and asks that it be left natural? Will you refuse to leave the Dog natural and say they should go to a different breeder?"
If someone wants one of MY Puppies then they will be getting a cropped/docked puppy and if they want a natural Dobie, they can search elsewhere.
The "traditional" Doberman look is with cropped ears and a docked tail. It may not be the genetic look, but IS the look of a Doberman. The natural dobie is an outsider to the traditional dobie, not the other way around. This has been a tradition for many years, so don't think that now since people are trying to stop the traditional looks of many dogs, does not make them deformed. The natural dogs, nowadays, are the outcasts. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/20/2006 8:25:08 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Natural dogs, where I am from, are not 'outcasts' or 'outsiders' in any way. They are the norm. There are more countries in the world where cropping is not done rather than done. The number of pressure groups looking towards the end of cropping and docking are growing. The size of those groups is growing. This is a historical trend; the canine world is slowly but deliberately moving away from surgically modifying dogs.
As I said, on a literary and genetic level, 'the Dobermann'is not the Dog you see in the US, with the cropped ears and docked tail, nor is it the Dog often seen in the UK, with natural ears and docked tail - it is an animal which has a full length tail and pendant ears. that is 'the Dobermann'. What you have is a Dobermann, but after the environmental influences of man.
Are you or are you not an advocate of choice concerning croping and docking then? As I'm almost sure you support the demand for 'choice'. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 4/20/2006 8:29:13 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6714
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"Are you or are you not an advocate of choice concerning croping and docking then? As I'm almost sure you support the demand for 'choice'."
Do you support the demand for choice? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/20/2006 8:58:01 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I do support choice, yes. However, I also think that unless there's enough evidence to prove that docking and cropping are beneficial to the dog, we should not be making the choices to have those things done to them. This is more an issue with cropping than with docking as there's absolutely no evidence that cropping is beneficial to the dogs - as advocates of cropping on the forum have already admitted, they crop simply because of aesthetic preference. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/20/2006 11:00:33 AM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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| Quote GraceEmily: I do support choice, yes. However, I also think that unless there's enough evidence to prove that docking and cropping are beneficial to the dog, we should not be making the choices to have those things... |
How about we have a choice until there is sufficient evidence that it's harmful?? Nobody has anwered me that one yet! If it's done correctly, HOW is it HARMFUL?????? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/20/2006 5:32:47 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Despite my belief that it's the people who want to put the Dog at risk (however big or small) of surgery (for something which is admittedly cosmetic) who should have to justify their reasons for doing so, rather than those who wish to leave a healthy Dog alone, I'm content to state what I feel should be concerns.
The actual procedure carries all the inherent risks of surgery under anaesthesia, and then exposes the ear canal of a Dog whose ears have none of the guard hairs present in a Dog whose ears are naturally erect. The surgery causes pain or discomfort (which is treated with painkillers so it appears there is none) afterwards.
It is carrying on a tradition, yes. It's carrying on the traditional value that dogs can be treated as they like by their masters because they are images or objects - thus their appearances can be changed to what is perceived to be fashionable. |
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