| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/18/2006 3:18:31 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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The Dog is actually at no greater risk of ear infection due to having pendant ears - they just need regular cleaning. Cropped dogs are theoretically (I say that only as I have no figures to prove it) more likely to get ear infections as they have no guard hairs preventing dust particles from entering their ears (as dogs with normally erect ears do), whereas a Dog with pendant ears has the whole ear flap preventing dust passing into his ear canal.
No-one is trying to play mind games with you; calm down. We're simply discussing rationally. At the end of the day we don't know each other and this doesn't matter but we're all capable of rising above such a minor disagreement. There are plenty of things over which we would agree. For a start, we both agree that Dobermanns are a most beautiful breed.
I see the point about image first attracting us to a breed but still don't see how that can lead us to the extremity of the difference between loving and hating a Dog being all in the ears and tail.
Also, things don't always work in that way - I think bull terriers are very attractive dogs. Twelve months ago I though they were ugly as sin; what changed my mind was meeting a lovely individual. I can only hope that Dobiegurl will meet a lovely natural Dobe who can show her that they have their own beauty, albeit a different one to that which she's used to. |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/18/2006 3:32:15 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
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I've not read every single post (I probably should have, but oh well here I am replying anyway.)
I don't understand why this is such a big issue here. We talk about this several times a month and everybody keeps saying the same things. Can we not just let this go and everybody just accept that some people here don't approve of docking/cropping and some of us see nothing wrong with it? This is such an emotional and passionate topic that even though nobody is being in any way rude people are still getting feelings messed with.
Just because someone thinks a Dog is ugly doesn't mean they don't love dogs, how silly! I think lots of dogs are ugly as heck, but I love them anyway. lol
So since nobody is really saying anything that hasn't been said before, can't we just agree to disagree and let this one fizzle out?  For those who love their dogs docked and cropped, as long as it's legal then by all means enjoy it. They might feel a little pain at first, but there's no permanent long term damage (unless the vet screws up, but then that's the vet's fault and doesn't happen to ALL dogs) and then the Dog gets over it. For those who think it's barbaric, then don't get your dogs done. You can own any breed you want and request it not get cropped and docked as long as you like the looks of it natural. There's nothing wrong with liking things the way nature made them, and don't fret yourself over the small things that other people do, you don't have to answer for it.
Some people like to follow tradition, and some people just like to leave things alone, and there's nothing wrong with either of those attitudes.  |
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| APBTlover |
| Posted 4/18/2006 4:04:33 PM |
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Active: 08-15-2005
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Quote Dobiegurl313: No one asked you to get anything. That is your opinion of cropping, but I had plans if cropping my Dobie before I even got him.
I HATE floppy ears, and just because you like them doesn't mean I have... |
I am not disagreeing w/you here..i love cropped ears on a dobie. But what if your dog's ears would not have stood? Or if the next dobie you get and get the ears done they dont stand? You say you hate floppy ears..so if your dog's ears dont stand due to a bad crop job or something..then you wouldnt love your Dog since you hate floppy ears??? Our dobie had his ears cut and they did not stand...but we loved him no less. |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:20:42 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
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| Quote APBTlover: I am not disagreeing w/you here..i love cropped ears on a dobie. But what if your dog's ears would not have stood? Or if the next dobie you get and get the ears done they dont stand? You say you hate floppy... |
I would hate the ears. I never said I wouldn't love my dog, just wouldn't have an appealing look to me. Just because I think its ugly doesn't maen I won't love it. But if my right to crop and dock was taken from me them I would find a new breed. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 8:56:03 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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You want to breed in the future, right? If you were already an established breeder and bred the best quality Dobes in America, would you still find a different breed just because of cropping and docking? Could you not look past the ears and tail to see that the breed is still fabulous? |
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| puglet |
| Posted 4/19/2006 9:51:04 AM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
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| Quote GraceEmily: You want to breed in the future, right? If you were already an established breeder and bred the best quality Dobes in America, would you still find a different breed just because of cropping and docking?... |
You know that i agree wholeheartedly with you, but this member just isnt going to change her mind and realize how strange it sounds to us that she would choose a new breed if docking and cropping was made illegal. She is obviously set in her opinion that unless you cut bits of dobermans then they are ugly and you know what? Im not even going to waste my breath arguing with someone like this any more.
Id just love to see peoples reaction if i posted that i had just taken my pug to get his ears broken and tail cut off because i dont like the way it looks. Just because something has been done for centuries doesnt make it right. I mean should we still have public executions and witch burnings just cause they were traditional and accepted at one point?
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| APBTlover |
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:26:18 AM |
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Active: 08-15-2005
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| Quote GraceEmily: You want to breed in the future, right? If you were already an established breeder and bred the best quality Dobes in America, would you still find a different breed just because of cropping and docking?... |
i love the cropped look..but if this ever became illegal in the US i would not love the breed any less. dobies are a magnificent breed w/cropped ears or not. i have seen many beautiful dobies w/cropped ears and many w/out cropped ears. The way the Dog looks does not change the personality or intelligence of the breed. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:30:58 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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I understand and agree with you about this - I don't see that keeping a tradition as it was centuries ago should be more important than keeping a Dog as it was born.
For what it's worth I was never trying to change this person's mind, I just want to understand better WHY anyone would want to do that to their pets and HOW they can justify cosmetic surgery on an animal to themself. (This usually means them saying it was painless for the Dog and better for them in the end, despite evidence against this...
I suppose my ultimate aim may have been for this person to change their own mind, rather than me changing it for them, but that's not likely to happen! I can only hope that she one day meets a Dobe with his ears flopping inside out as he runs, and his tail waving around and realises that he's just as beautiful as any other Dobe! Also, the point I was trying to get across in several of my posts is that if somebody wants to breed any breed of dog, they need to have a huge level of committment to the breed. Now, if you're willing to give a breed up over just its ears and tail then I don't think you have the necessary devotion to the BREED, rather than the look.
The laws concerning docking in the UK are changing now, cropping has long been illegal. It is very unlikely that this won't spread to the US eventually, as pressure groups are already growing there. The look of dogs that are artificially altered will have to adapt. The breed itself will not. |
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| Rambaldi1 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:33:52 AM |
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Active: 05-27-2005
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Quote foxfire_ga79: I've not read every single post (I probably should have, but oh well here I am replying anyway.)
I don't understand why this is such a big issue here. We talk about this several times a month and everybody... |
I've stayed away from this thread for this exact reason. This has been discussed a number of times and no one ever changes their stance.
Can't we all agree to disagree? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:43:17 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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For the most part we are agreeing to disagree - we just wanted to discuss this in our own words, even if it has been covered before. You don't want to and you've avoided it. Those willing to discuss have done so without falling out. I don't see that there's a problem with us having this conversation again and again if we want to. |
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| Rambaldi1 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 10:50:30 AM |
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Active: 05-27-2005
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| Quote GraceEmily: For the most part we are agreeing to disagree - we just wanted to discuss this in our own words, even if it has been covered before. You don't want to and you've avoided it. Those willing to discuss have... |
lol, yes ma'am!
For the record, I am against cropping and docking and have noticed that fo the most part, those that are for it always use the 'tradition' excuse 
Garce, you're from the UK right? Has fox hunting been banned? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 11:00:05 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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Yes, foxhunting is illegal now in the UK. And so it should be - there are better, more humane ways to control 'pests' than letting underfed, poorly cared for dogs rip it to pieces after it's been chased to the point of exhaustion. Tradition is not, and should not be used as, an excuse for anything. Bull baiting was a tradition. Bear baiting was a tradition. Dog fighting was a tradition. Do people still demand their right to do these with their dogs? |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 11:58:52 AM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
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| Quote GraceEmily: Yes, foxhunting is illegal now in the UK. And so it should be - there are better, more humane ways to control 'pests' than letting underfed, poorly cared for dogs rip it to pieces after it's been chased... |
I guess next you'll be calling me a barbarian going to hell in a handbasket because I circumsized both my sons?  Don't worry, I've had people say that to me before because of that. lol
I'm sure things are going to change in the US in the very near future. That's exactly why I'm not going to consider a Dog that's traditionally docked or cropped to begin a breeding program. I am a pretty traditional person and it would be simply heartbreaking to me to have to give up the beauty and splendor of the past generations. I would still LOVE the dogs, they would still be beautiful to me, but I'm slow at trying new things and it takes me a really long time for someone to convince me something I haven't tried before is good. So I'm just avoiding the surgically enhanced dogs all together. I wanted really bad to breed Great Danes as my first breed, but their ears held me back. I've known for a long time this was going to happen.
I just prefer to leave the cropping/docking people alone. It's comforting to keep tradition, especially such a mild one. How can you even compare tail docking to Dog fighting? lol. Dog fighting has the intention of killing one dog, docking is just for looks.
Ok now I really do need to get going. I STILL havn't had breakfast! lol
C-Ya'll! |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:34:48 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
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Why were dobies and danes ears cropped and tailed whacked off to begin with. I have read the old "save the tail from injury" line for cockers, Springers, Brits, etc. Yet English, Irish and Gordon setters tails were not cut off. These dogs all bred for hunting purposes yeasr ago, faced the same kind of terrains, brambles, brush, etc. Were not the setter breeds just as likely to get tail injuries?
Why is the English pointer and German Longhaired pointers tail left in tack, but the German short haired pointer and Germain wire haried pointers tails half cut off. Why just half? If the spaniles and cockers need all but a couple of inches cut off to protect their tails, why not the pointers?
As far as I am concerned this all goes back to someone deciding that whacked off tails and chopped up ears looked better on some breeds and it became a monkey see, monkey do thing. I really suspect most people here in the states do not even realize that dobies, danes, boxers are not born with ears standing up...because that is all they have seen all their lives. |
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| shay05 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:41:03 PM |
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Active: 08-23-2005
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| Quote Threegoldens: Why were dobies and danes ears cropped and tailed whacked off to begin with. I have read the old "save the tail from injury" line for cockers, Springers, Brits, etc. Yet English, Irish and Gordon setters... |
lol yep I was one of those people until last year. Had not a clue that they were born with natural ears, same with yorkies and docked tails. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:43:05 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
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If you think it was solely look in the beginning, then you're very wrong.
I've said before why the Dobes ears were generally cut and the tail docked. For one, back when Dobermans were dogs working for the Military and Police Department, they cut the ears in order to prevent something for the attacker to hold on to. They did the tail for the same reason. Yes, the tail was originally docked for breeds that hunted, just because some of the breeds don't have it, doesn't mean that it's completely made up. |
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| shay05 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:47:25 PM |
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Active: 08-23-2005
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Quote krfrww: If you think it was solely look in the beginning, then you're very wrong.
I've said before why the Dobes ears were generally cut and the tail docked. For one, back when Dobermans were dogs working for... |
Ok, but now its just for looks, right? I don't see many yorkies roaming the fields or anything like that anymore, but being a typical lap dog, getting dressed up, primped, pampered..? |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/19/2006 12:52:49 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
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| Quote shay05: Ok, but now its just for looks, right? I don't see many yorkies roaming the fields or anything like that anymore, but being a typical lap dog, getting dressed up, primped, pampered..? |
I can't say I've seen any Yorkies that had any surgery done the way Dobes do.
And yes, I never denied today it's mainly about look. But it was never started that way just "cause they could". It was started for a reason, and it's continuing for another.
For me, personally, I love both Natural and Cropped/Docked Dobes. They're both gorgeous dogs, with amazing temperaments. I prefer cropped for quite a few reasons. One, being I find it to be more sanitary and needing less work. Obviously that won't be the same for everybody, but my dogs that have ears that were erect (naturally or not) got less ear infections than those who didn't.
Some people, like Foxfire said, do it for tradition. There are some really traditional people out there, and whether the anti-croppers/dockers like it or not, a cropped and docked Doberman is tradition. It is what the entire world knew originally for Dobermans. And it is what the majority of them will know, until ear cropping and docking are completely banned. I, myself, am a traditional person. I do crop and dock Dobe's ears partly because of tradition, partly because of personal preference, and partly because it's less work. |
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| dusty082155 |
| Posted 4/19/2006 1:37:54 PM |
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Active: 05-15-2005
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| Quote Dobiegurl313: I would hate the ears. I never said I wouldn't love my dog, just wouldn't have an appealing look to me. Just because I think its ugly doesn't maen I won't love it. But if my right to crop and dock was... |
i read this twice. i didnt see anywhere where she said she would get rid of her Dog if his ears did not stand. or anywhere where she said that she would stop loving her dog. just that she wouldnt find the Dog as appealing to look at. whats so wrong with that? if we had a homely child, does not mean we wouldnt love that child any less.or that we would want to get rid of it because it wasnt pleasing to our eye.when getting a dog, we have a choice. we choose what is pleasing to the eye. we choose the breed/s that capture our attention.
some people just prefer breeds that have standing or prick ears. i am one myself, having a gsd and three frenchies. heck my frenchies have some of the biggest standing ears of any breed. that was the first thing that i noticed when i first saw one. i loved them ! my gsd developed a hematoma in his ear. he had it surgically removed. it flops over now at the tip. is he still as attractive to me as he was before ? no. do i love him as much as before? YES .would i part with him? NO. that is all she is trying to say and i do understand. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/19/2006 3:21:10 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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Ah, but owning dogs with naturally erect ears, you didn't buy your Puppies with pendant ears thinking 'that'll be alright because I can just have them cut up so they stand'. And your situation with your dog's ear was unavoidable, whereas cropping is not.
I used to hate being told that as I dislike docking I should choose a breed that's not traditionally docked. With these changes coming about, I think it should be the opposite - people who like traditionally docked and cropped dogs to be docked and cropped should be told to avoid them, as soon there will be laws against doing so. See how well they take that.
To Dobiegurl, you plan to breed Dobermanns in the future and say that you'll dock and crop all Puppies that you breed - what if someone approaches you, pays for their Dog before its birth and asks that it be left natural? Will you refuse to leave the Dog natural and say they should go to a different breeder? |
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