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Ear cropping |
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| kally2000 |
| Posted 4/15/2006 5:34:40 PM |
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Active: 04-10-2006
Posts: 410
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I did have my indoor... INDOOR cat declawed. Later I found out that in the cat declawing they actually cut off the first knuckle... I am not sure if that is always the case, but I might have thought different at the time. The reason for my declawing were that i had 3 cats, that when a f#@#@ stray came to and got in the house caused a cat fight that my 3 beloved pets couldnt get over and over the course of years did absolutely everything I could to have them become friends again. Oh well long story.
Cropping prices must vary alot, in all the research I did for my great dane puppy (who is already cropped) that the cheapest price I heard of was $250 ironically that was from the vet who does all the dogs for the washington BYB LOL all the "real" or i should say reputable dealers who are dealing with high quality dogs and vets the cost is usually $350-$450. BTW my local vet who just does "cropping" not specializing in a breed (so I was not going to use them" quoted $350, with $20 follow ups for retaping till the ears are trained. Also I dont know how it is with dobermans but in searching the danes I have learned that is mostly nothing but training the ear to stand up works so any Dog cropped can have a "bad" crop if they are not trained. I have found out that the training per Dog vary much varies, some dogs it takes 3 rerolls, some dogs as many as 10 or more, but it is with my understanding that it is persistance with training the ear (as the cartiledge forms while they are being trained) that is more important than in impropper cut, that usually results in cosmetic looks. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/15/2006 5:37:19 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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| Quote kally2000: I did have my indoor... INDOOR cat declawed. Later I found out that in the cat declawing they actually cut off the first knuckle... I am not sure if that is always the case, but I might have thought different... |
Yes, that is true.
When cropping, the ears MUST stay in a cup until the scabs and stuff are fully healed, and then taped up until the ear grows strong enough to stand.
Although, even with all of that, there are still some bad crop jobs, from vets who don't know how to crop. Mainly the size of the crop, and the crop in itself can just be terrible. That's why if you do crop ears, it is so so so important to find somebody who is experienced in the type of crop you want. The taping is very very important, but you could do that until the Dog is 3 years old, and a bad crop will still be a bad crop. |
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| kally2000 |
| Posted 4/15/2006 5:41:11 PM |
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Active: 04-10-2006
Posts: 410
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Quote krfrww: Yes, that is true.
When cropping, the ears MUST stay in a cup until the scabs and stuff are fully healed, and then taped up until the ear grows strong enough to stand.
Although, even with all of... |
That unfortionatly is true. People do your homework  like most things... you get what you pay for!!! I was going to drive 6 hours to get one who knew what they were doing specifically with great dane ears |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/15/2006 5:44:56 PM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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| Quote kally2000: That unfortionatly is true. People do your homework like most things... you get what you pay for!!! I was going to drive 6 hours to get one who knew what they were doing specifically with great... |
Yeah, I know what you mean. My sister drove about 10 hours, to get a vet that did Dobes ears for a long long time, and who would actually provide pictures of the dogs that he's done.
I'll probably do the same if I do get a Dobe from a breeder, if needed. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/15/2006 6:18:34 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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If it's so difficult to get a vet who can do this well, and with all the associated risks of surgery under anaesthetic, why not just let the dog's ears fall naturally? What personal reason would you have for wanting your Dog cropped? |
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| kally2000 |
| Posted 4/15/2006 7:12:32 PM |
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Active: 04-10-2006
Posts: 410
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| Quote GraceEmily: If it's so difficult to get a vet who can do this well, and with all the associated risks of surgery under anaesthetic, why not just let the dog's ears fall naturally? What personal reason would you have... |
Mine I was still undecided. But the breeder already had it done it the case of the puppy i got. I will say though my reasoning for the crop was mostly recognition of the breed, the fact that this is such a regal breed (as is the dobes) and I had a dobe Dog that died of old age that was asked just before he died OHHHH how old is your puppy. That and then the medical reasons of possible ear infections of some breeds with overly large ears verses small ear canals. I myself had a german shephard that one ear did not go up, and after hundreds of vet visits with painfull infections, and a surger to enlarge the canal, was put down because of her not being able to be infection free for any reasonable period of time for her to be happy pain free. |
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| Threegoldens |
| Posted 4/15/2006 8:47:25 PM |
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Active: 10-27-2005
Posts: 201
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The dobie I was talking about was a full grown Dog and belonged to a cop in this small town. WE had this topic on another baord I belong to and most were against cropping. Many said it was for health reasons because of long ears and someone said in that case surely bloodhounds, bassettes and even irish setters should have their ears cropped to prevent infections.
Now I know this is gonna sound funny, but if tail is docked for work safety, why are some left with no tail, some with a little 3'4" stump and otheres (like Weimies) left with half a tail. Shouldn't the tail be totally removed on every one if it is for safety purposes? Why three different lengths?
Someone brought up that the Springers, Brittneys, etc had their tails docked to prevent damage when in the field hunting. They said the Dog whipping it's tail back and forth could damage it on brush, etc. So why not pointers, English Setters, irish Setters, Gordon Setters, etc. I have never seen any of these breeds with docked tails and they are all hunters and go into just as rough a terrrian as the cockers, Brittneys, Springers etc, so this makes no sense to me.
I have known many people with cockers with docked tails and not one was used for hunting. Their tails were cut off because it has gotten to be "habit' or fad or whatever.
We always had English Setters and Pointers, and we hunted very rough areas, brambles, blackberry vines, cockle burrs, cactus thickets. All of our dogs had their full tails and none ever got a injury in the field.
I have no idea if this is true or not, but someone at that other forum said dogs whose ears stand up naturally have more hair in their ears to prevent stuff from blowing into them. Since i have only ever owned flop earred dogs, I do not know if this is true or not.
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 4/16/2006 4:54:37 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659
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| Quote GraceEmily: If it's so difficult to get a vet who can do this well, and with all the associated risks of surgery under anaesthetic, why not just let the dog's ears fall naturally? What personal reason would you have... |
My personal reason is because I like the look of a cropped and docked Dobie.
I will crop and dock all Dobies I get in my life time.
I do NOT like the way natural Dobies look.
My puppy got his ears done at 12 weeks and when I brought him home he was fine. He ran into the walls, banged his ears and not once whined or cried.
Three golden: My Dog walks up and down the hall moaning and whining for attention. So I doubt the puppy was whining because the ears hurted. |
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| puglet |
| Posted 4/16/2006 5:49:55 AM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
Posts: 830
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| Quote GraceEmily: I know you're in Ireland so I'm not sure if the laws are the same there as they are for me here in the UK but cropping has been illegal for many years now (I'm not sure exactly how many but almost two... |
Thanx for clearing that up for me. As far as i know, boh cropping and docking are illegal over here, but yet, i ve never seen a dobe, rottie or Boxer with a tail ,so its still going on. I have to say, im against it unless its for working dogs and even then, it think its barbaric.
Whats worse is to cut off bits of your Dog just because you dont like the way it looks naturally. i mean would it be ok for me to cut off my pugs curly tail if i prefered them not to have one? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/16/2006 7:46:18 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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| Quote puglet: Thanx for clearing that up for me. As far as i know, boh cropping and docking are illegal over here, but yet, i ve never seen a dobe, rottie or Boxer with a tail ,so its still going on. I have to say,... |
Sadly, the law would be just fine about that. Cosmetic surgery for dogs, eh? What a great idea. If the ban on docking has only recently come into force over there then it will only apply to new litters. Some people will get around it by claiming that their dogs are for working. Other breeders have been known to dock their Puppies illegally and claim that the dam bit off the dogs' tails for no reason.
Docking cannot be performed by breeders legally, only by vets. Yet vets are not allowed by the Royal Veterinary Society to dock - they risk being struck off if they do. So there must be lots of illegal or 'under the counter' docking going on in the UK and Ireland. That would also explain the majority of botched dockings.
Dogs whose ears are naturally erect have more protective fur lining their ears to stop dust and things getting in. dogs whose ears are naturally pendant but are cropped have no such protection so, theoretically, are more likely to get ear infections than if their ears were natural.
I still don't understand how anyone can claim to like the look of a Dog as it is after surgery, yet not like the original, natural dog. If you like the breed enough, you should like it as it was born, not as humans make it.
You're not appreciating the look of a Dobermann if you like the cropped look - you're appreciating the look of a Dog interfered with by humans. A Dobermann, genetically, has a long tail and pendant ears. That is a Dobermanns 'look', not short-tailed and erect ears. That, to me, is another dog. |
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| Dobiegurl313 |
| Posted 4/17/2006 3:23:05 AM |
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Active: 01-11-2006
Posts: 659
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| Quote GraceEmily: Sadly, the law would be just fine about that. Cosmetic surgery for dogs, eh? What a great idea. If the ban on docking has only recently come into force over there then it will only apply to new litters.... |
It is my choice and I love the look of a cropped and docked Dobie. I think a Dobie that is all natural does not show the real beauty of a Doberman and IMO are ugly. If I cannot crop and dock my Dobies then I will find a new breed to fall in love with because I hate floppy ears, on any breed. |
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| puglet |
| Posted 4/17/2006 5:05:03 AM |
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Active: 12-30-2005
Posts: 830
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| Quote Dobiegurl313: It is my choice and I love the look of a cropped and docked Dobie. I think a Dobie that is all natural does not show the real beauty of a Doberman and IMO are ugly. If I cannot crop and dock my Dobies... |
You sound like a real Dog lover if you think the breed you love is ugly when left natural. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/17/2006 7:09:22 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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| Quote Dobiegurl313: It is my choice and I love the look of a cropped and docked Dobie. I think a Dobie that is all natural does not show the real beauty of a Doberman and IMO are ugly. If I cannot crop and dock my Dobies... |
I hope you change your mind about that some day. Floppy ears are so great! They can flap around and turn inside out when the Dog runs! Dobermanns look beautiful however they are. I just prefer them before the surgery. After all, when you got your Dog he had floppy ears - you still fell in love with him then, didn't you? The 'real beauty of a Dobermann' is as it was born. What you admire is the beautiful of an artificial Dobermann - one that has been altered by mankind to be, in my opinion, something other than a Dobermann.
Maybe the creation of a new breed is in order? Perhaps you could create a breed that looks exactly like the Dobe but has naturally erect ears? |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 4/17/2006 8:30:09 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6601
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| Quote kally2000: Mine I was still undecided. But the breeder already had it done it the case of the puppy i got. I will say though my reasoning for the crop was mostly recognition of the breed, the fact that this is such... |
Our breeder flew a gentalmen in to do her litters ears. Ray Cataldi was his name. Her ears were perfect. Far to often the people cropping Danes ears don't know what they are doing and give the Dog Dobie ears. I admitt the tapeing was a pain in the butt but Alexis loved it. We would say "come on lets fix your ears and she would get all excited and sit waiting for them to be done. Years after they no longer needed tapped we would say "lets do your ears" and she would come at a dead run from where ever she was and promtly sit down and lean her head over so we could rub her ears. lol |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/17/2006 9:05:19 AM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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It is NOBODYS right to judge somebody based on how they prefer their dogs to look.
Personally, I think the Dobe is beautiful natural or cropped, I just prefer cropped. Call me not a Dog lover, if you must... but I prefer my Dobes to be cropped and docked.
It's NOT hard to find a good vet to crop the ears. However, when you live in the Midwest with a bunch of vets who stick up for puppy millers, I'd much rather drive 10 hours to Indianapolis to get a vet who truly cares about dogs.
Have you ever lived with a Dog after their ears are cropped? Probably not, guess what? They don't hurt. They don't sit there and whine all day because their ears are cropped. They run around, they play just like they did BEFORE the ears got cropped. The only thing that's a bother to them is the cupping the ears, and taping them. That's annoying for good reason.
It is nobody's right to sit here and judge somebody you've never met, let alone talked to, about the fact that they crop their dogs ears.
Do you spay or neuter your dog? If so, that's also surgery for dogs, as well as putting them under anesthesia, how come you're not against that? Are you against cutting off the dew claws of a dog? Did you know that they can be ripped off if caught in something? That causes more pain than cutting it off when they're 3 days old.
You prefer dogs natural, and know what? THAT'S FINE. Other people prefer the Dobes to be cropped, and know what? THAT'S FINE AS WELL. It's harder finding people who realize other people have different opinions than them, and accepting that... than it is to find a vet who can do a great military crop.
As for modifying the Doberman for natural erect ears, that would then take away something in the Doberman. What? Who knows, but it'll take something away.. and then they're just not a Doberman any more. You can dislike ear cropping all you want, but don't judge people just because they do it. |
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| APBTlover |
| Posted 4/17/2006 9:08:34 AM |
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Active: 08-15-2005
Posts: 2196
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Quote krfrww: It is NOBODYS right to judge somebody based on how they prefer their dogs to look.
Personally, I think the Dobe is beautiful natural or cropped, I just prefer cropped. Call me not a Dog lover, if you... |
I dont think you could have said it any better!!!
My best friend has our dobie..his ears were cropped, but didnt stand. She also has a female dobie...blue/fawn. They never had the money to crop the female's ears and if you dont know anything about dogs you can mistake her female dobe for a weimeriner. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/17/2006 10:05:23 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I'm not judging anyone on here - I accept that you will all have different opinions to me. that's absolutely fine.
I didn't suggest altering the Dobermann breed - I suggested the creation of new breed - rather than altering every individual member of an existing breed.
How could that take any more away from the Dobermann than changing the look of every Dog of that breed? Cropping and docking Dobermanns makes them look less like Dobermanns, rather than more like Dobermanns.
There is NO comparison to be made, in my opinion, between spaying/neutering and cropping. Neutering is done to prevent accidental breedings and control population growth. Ear cropping is purely cosmetic.
Advocates of docking continually claim that it prevents surgery later in life (as surgery has inherent risks of death due to anaesthesia) yet the same people then crop their dogs - which is surgery under anaesthesia. Coming from a country that doesn't crop I do think that makes the arguments for docking seem like little more than an excuse.
Let me just repeat that I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm also not here to argue, I'm just debating. I'm not going to fall out with anyone or hold grudges simply because of a minor disagreement. |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/17/2006 10:45:03 AM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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I was more or less talking about the person who said that somebody wasn't a Dog lover just because they thought natural dobes are ugly.
The problem is, people who live outside of the US will probably assume natural Dobes are better looking, since you DO have laws against ear cropping and tail docking, so you're not really "used" to seeing cropped Dobes. However in America, most Dobes you see, are in fact cropped.
I wouldn't be opposed to a breed that looked like a dobe, with naturally erect ears.. however I don't like the Dobe because of how they look. I love their temperament. They are my absolute most favorite dog. Temperament wise, and even look wise. I do prefer the cropped look, because for me, it is a lot easier to maintain. Of all the Dobes I've known, and had, some were cropped some weren't. The ones that weren't got ear infections quite a bit. And the ones that were, living in the same place, eating the same food, from the same litter, didn't.
I don't crop my Dobe's ears solely for look purposes. It does motivate my decision to do so, because I do prefer it. But for me, it's also a lot more sanitary, and easier to take care of after the taping has been done.
Would I get a Dobe if they had natural tail and ears? Of course, I'd still get one, if it was too old, I wouldn't crop the ears... however if it was still young enough, and had ear problems I would. But that's just me. I prefer erect ears. It makes the Dog look more alert, it brings out the expression in the Dobermans eyes.
The thing is though, the cropped Dobe *IS* "the" look for a Doberman. In shows, if you have a natural Dobe you must hold up their ears to see the PROPER shape of the Dobermans head. With the natural ears that it does have, you cannot see the Dobes head, the way that it needs to be seen. It gets overlapped, and shadowed and it's not "the" doberman look. One day it may be, because leaving natural is getting more popular.
I mean like I said, I really do think the Dobe is an all around gorgeous dog. Gorgeous natural, and gorgeous cropped/docked. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 4/17/2006 11:06:36 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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When I say 'the look of a Dobermann' I am not referring to the look depicted in the standard, I'm referring to how it would look if you just had its genes to go on - that's the true, unalterable, genetic 'look' of the dog. I'm saying that is what a Dobermann is as opposed to being a Dog that has naturally erect ears and bobbed tail. If we gave a list of genes to someone who could then assemble them into an image of what a Dobermann would be, it would be a Dog with long tail and pendant ears.
But I totally agree with you about loving Dobes for far more than just their appearance - it's about the character, the intelligence, the emotion behind the eyes. I could happily move to America, or elsewhere that allows cropping, and own a cropped dog, though any that I bred or bought before cropping would remain natural.
That's why I can't understand anyone claiming to only like one type or the other. Loving Dobermanns is about more than their ears and tails - you have to love all the bits between as well! |
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| krfrww |
| Posted 4/17/2006 11:18:00 AM |
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Active: 10-01-2005
Posts: 597
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I agree. However, I don't think it's a matter of disliking a Dobe that's natural, just disliking the look. And I can understand that. I'm not a huge fan for "hound" ears. Now if they were smaller natural ears, I'd have no problem keeping them natural.
But any person who's owned a Dobe, (well, a Dobe that was bred well) would probably agree that if they rescued a Dobe from a shelter or a rescue, had no ear problems, was a couple years old, and had uncropped ears... I really doubt any of them would be like "well, I don't want it because it's uncropped". At least I wouldn't.
Doberman's are just so intelligent, and I don't know.. one of the few dogs that have so much expression in their eyes. When they're sad, their eyes look sad, and when they're happy you can see them gleaming with joy. They're just... such great dogs, cropped ears and docked tail or not. |
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