| gypsie_spiryt |
| Posted 5/17/2006 7:45:01 AM |
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Active: 03-27-2006
Posts: 110
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| Quote kajukembo: well the solution would be to only de-claw the front paws. i discussed it with my vet and that is what she and he recomended. it has worked out great, she does not scratch up things in the house and she... |
I know that in Germany it is illegal and considered to be animal cruelty to declaw a cat (front paws included). I lived there for 5 years and it just wasnt done. Most of the germans didnt have a problem with it. In my opinion, it was the americans that really wanted their animals declawed. If you wanted it done you had to go to Luxembourg. My kitties all have their claws and I have not had any problem with them scratching up the furniture. |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/17/2006 1:08:35 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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"I dont really understand how they can put these changes into action without mixing purebreds with other breeds and i cant really see that happening."
The breeds' appearance could be changed by selective breeding. There are what are called "drop nosed Pekes", they could be used to gradually lenghten the muzzles of Pekingese. There are Pekes with longer legs, etc.
But the point of that manifesto is "Change or be eliminated". They don't care if the breed clubs can or can't change the breeds to meet their specifications. What they're saying is if the breeds aren't changed, they want the breeds banned, they want them to become extinct, no more Pugs, Pekes, Chihuahuas, Great Danes, Saint Bernards, etc.
The reason they say they want this is because they think it's cruel to continue to breed these dogs because their physical characteristics cause the dogs to suffer. They don't care if *you* think Pugs are healthy, they don't think so. The reason I brought this up is in relation to cropped/docked breeds. I don't think c/d is cruel; you do think it's cruel and think it should be banned. You don't think the way Pugs look is cruel; they do and want it banned. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/17/2006 1:53:51 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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But the difference is that Pugs, Great Danes, etc. are born the way that they are and live their lives unaltered. Dobes aren't born with erect ears so they are surgically altered. you shouldn't be able to ban anything from existing but that doesn't compare with making virtually every Dog of a certain breed undergo surgery to 'rectify' it.
You mentioned earlier that some Dobermanns are born with naturally erect ears. Would it be possible to use them as a foundation for breeding Dobes with naturally erect ears? Or do they show up only in poor quality litters? |
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| foxfire_ga79 |
| Posted 5/17/2006 3:26:28 PM |
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Active: 12-10-2005
Posts: 4801
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| Quote GraceEmily: But the difference is that Pugs, Great Danes, etc. are born the way that they are and live their lives unaltered. Dobes aren't born with erect ears so they are surgically altered. you shouldn't be able... |
But there's the difference with you and PETA and whatever insane groups are out there. THEY think certain breeds are living and "suffering" life just because they exist. THEY finally lobbied enough politicians to get cropping and docking banned. What's going to be next on their agenda?
Rationally thinking people see nothing wrong with dogs being born a certain way, but extremists always seem to get their way. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the more zealous the group is the squeakier they are. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/17/2006 3:32:52 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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In which case the sane human beings among us (because there are some!) should make ourselves known when things like this begin to be thought about. And at the end of the day, the lawmakers will (supposedly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish) obey the will of the majority. And the majority will say that dogs who are born with short faces or long legs or dwarfed legs are happy as any other dogs and there's no reason they should be stopped from existing.
There's a difference between banning a practice and banning a life. Hopefully most people who dislike docking and cropping realise that. |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/17/2006 5:00:19 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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Well you'd better get busy then, because about 15 countries have already signed on to the manifesto to do just that. You don't seem aware of it.
"In which case the sane human beings among us (because there are some!) should make ourselves known when things like this begin to be thought about. And at the end of the day, the lawmakers will (supposedly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish) obey the will of the majority. And the majority will say that dogs who are born with short faces or long legs or dwarfed legs are happy as any other dogs and there's no reason they should be stopped from existing.
There's a difference between banning a practice and banning a life. Hopefully most people who dislike docking and cropping realise that." |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/17/2006 5:03:26 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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"You mentioned earlier that some Dobermanns are born with naturally erect ears. Would it be possible to use them as a foundation for breeding Dobes with naturally erect ears? Or do they show up only in poor quality litters?"
Of course they only show up in poor quality litters because those are the litters that go uncropped. We would have to stop cropping well bred litters to see how many of them ended up with erect ears, button ears, rose ears, or what have you.
It was you who has been saying that breeding Dobermans with naturally erect ears would be creating dogs that weren't Dobermans because they'd been genetically altered.
The Manchester Terrier is an ancestor of the Doberman and Standard Manchester Terriers are allowed three types of ears in the U.S. standard, naturally erect, button, or cropped. I've seen a picture of a Standard Manchester with naturally erect ears and they looked very nice. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/17/2006 6:00:08 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
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"It was you who has been saying that breeding Dobermans with naturally erect ears would be creating dogs that weren't Dobermans because they'd been genetically altered."
Yes? And?
They would be genetically different if they consistently produced naturally erect eared dogs. But a breed standard could encompass both, though I had failed to think of that possibility.
Is it not possible to tell before the age of cropping whether dogs will grow to have pendant ears or not?
You will have to be more tolerant of my lack of expertise concerning the procedure, given that it has been illegal in my country throughout my memory and I have never been involved in cropping. |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/17/2006 6:29:56 PM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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No it is not possible to tell at birth or before the age of cropping if the Puppies will have "pendant" ears or not. Take a look at some 7 week old Doberman Puppies or at least some photos and you tell me.
There is no need to even have both hanging and erect eared Dobermans being shown if naturally erect ears were bred in the future. What makes you think the hanging ear has anything to do with the origins of the breed? It doesn't, in fact evidence points to the early breeders wanting naturally erect ears but either not being able to get them or giving up. The cropped ear is substitute for a naturally erect ear. If there were a naturally erect ear in the breed there would be no need for the hanging ear. Just because the UK has had them for 80 or so years is no reason they have to stay and many Doberman breeders in the UK have expressed the desire to be able to crop in the past and I don't know why they haven't worked on better ear carriage before now except that if you waste time on that you're ignoring things are more important for the breed's health.
Since you have never seen ears cropped you can't have an informed opinion on how cruel it is. I used to think it was cruel until I saw it.
What breed is it that you *are* knowledgable about and/or own? |
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| kajukembo |
| Posted 5/17/2006 7:55:16 PM |
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Active: 05-13-2006
Posts: 19
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| Quote gypsie_spiryt: I know that in Germany it is illegal and considered to be animal cruelty to declaw a cat (front paws included). I lived there for 5 years and it just wasnt done. Most of the germans didnt have a problem... |
Das ist sehr gut, but i don't live in Deutchland. i live in america, and just because some radicals call something cruel does not make it so. my cat is the most awsome cat i have ever known but she did scratch. and she scratche at the great dane Puppies not to be mean or anything but they would play rough so for both reasons we made what was a very long and drawn out decision. one that was discused in length with our vet and i think it was the right one. as long as it did not stop her from doing what she naturaly does out side and not make her vulnerable to other animals well then i was ok with that. because if she could no longer climb or mouse etc. things she realy loves to do then it served us both. i'm happy to report that she is spoiled rotten very well mannered and happy as a lark. so if that is cruel. well lord i'm cruel and the jews were never persecuted. see that is the problem in america now no goes after the truel cruel and unjust things they nit pick responable god fearing every day people that just want to live free. and they also think the freedom of chice gives them the RIGHT TO TELL OTHER POEPLE HOW TO LIVE. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 3:22:21 AM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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| Quote micdobe: No it is not possible to tell at birth or before the age of cropping if the Puppies will have "pendant" ears or not. Take a look at some 7 week old Doberman Puppies or at least some photos and you tell... |
I do not own any dogs at the moment as my living situation makes it impossible. However, I am knowledgeable about the Dobermann breed and seek to become moreso. Unfortunately, living in England means I have no experience with cropped dogs so, as I said, you will have to be more tolerant of my questions regarding it. Having never seen a Dobermann with naturally erect ears or semi-erect ears, I would not know whether or not it is possible to tell at a young age what their ears would be like.
Rather than repeatedly implying your own expertise in the subject you could help other people to become more knowledgeable, couldn't you? |
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| micdobe |
| Posted 5/18/2006 10:30:52 AM |
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Active: 05-28-2005
Posts: 137
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I am happy to answer your questions but you haven't really asked me. I have not been implying I am an expert on the breed, but I am familiar with it. You have come on as if you know all about the breed, what they are or would be genetically if this or that was done, etc. And as if you know all about docking and cropping, but as it turns out you don't.
What are your questions about the breed? I'm happy to answer them if I can? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:39:52 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I have asked questions concerning cropping. And most of them you have answered. I did not pretend to be an expert in the breed but I am knowledgeable about it as it is in the UK. That does not include cropping so I know very little about that.
However, now that you mention it, in another thread we both posted in (concerning albino dobermanns - I don't want to drag it back up to the front page now) you mentioned the disqualification system, which I think would be as good thing to have in the UK (as I didn't realise we didn't have something similar in place). I planned to write to the Kennel Club and breed clubs about this if I could and would like any advice you can give about what I could include (as well as the albinism condition). Are there any other disqualifications that the US standard has in place? Are there any other breeds that I would do well to mention? |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:40:39 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Sod's law - just as I wrote that someone else brought the 'White Dobes' thread back up to the front page! |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:47:06 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
Posts: 7081
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| Quote micdobe: No it is not possible to tell at birth or before the age of cropping if the Puppies will have "pendant" ears or not. Take a look at some 7 week old Doberman Puppies or at least some photos and you tell... |
my my...getting a bit NASTY with grace now , arent you?
you seem to think you are the resident KNOW it ALL person here- so BASTE us with your knowledge, and kindly remember everyone is ENTITLED to their own opinion, regardless if you like it OR not.
mssen Sie so niedrig sein und solch einen haben, es die ganze Meinung wissen?
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:49:58 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I don't underastand German. I wish I did. However, I do not claim to be a know-it-all. In fact, you may have noticed that I am hapily encouraging this person to advise me and share their knowledge because they clearly have the experience that I do not. I do not think my opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's (as I've said). I don't recall getting nasty with anyone. If you could specifiy where I made such an error then please enlighten me and I will aim to apologise for doing so. |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:51:47 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Oh, I'm sorry!
Really sorry, RESCUEWENCH! I misread your post (didn't see the 'with') and thought it was directed at me! Sorry for the misunderstanding - I'm too hasty sometimes and I've had one of those days that makes me feel a bit irritable!
However, what on earth does all that German mean?! |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 1:52:45 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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I feel the need to hide in shame now. Someone let me know when I'm forgiven and it's safe to return? |
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| RESCUEWENCH |
| Posted 5/18/2006 2:03:46 PM |
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Active: 01-24-2006
Posts: 7081
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relax... i know its easy to misread what is typed - especially after the attack you have been under here.. i felt i had to add my 2 cents..i HATE seeing someone attacked like that.. it IRKS ME!! LOL ( doenst almost everything? ) LOL
dont sweat it :)
i think your FINE.
its all GOOOD!
as far as what i wrote - maybe your little terror know it all pal will tell you ( wink)
nothing bad I assure you.
:)
:)
RW |
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| GraceEmily |
| Posted 5/18/2006 2:11:26 PM |
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Active: 01-06-2006
Posts: 1031
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Thanks. In future I promise to read everything twice before responding! Well, I'll try! |
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