| moggie |
| Posted 4/16/2008 8:19:48 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 you didnt mention how your puppy was doing or what breed of puppy you have. what state do you live in and was this a kennel or a single Dog owner?? how many dogs did this person have and what were the conditions?? |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/16/2008 8:31:03 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote moggie: perfectpom is right on target. i would think that your vet would agree that there is at least a 50/50 chance if not more that your puppy had already been exposed to parvo before you took possession.... |
Moggie I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Your opinion is coming from that as a breeder that has dealt with Parvo in the past.
Up until my Puppies contracted Parvo last year-- I did not give Neopar at 5 weeks. There was NO NEED.
If a person in a similar situation had taken one of my Puppies for 5 days, and the puppy contracted parvo, when none of the other littermates were sick-- I would think the same thing this breeder does, that it didn't come from my house, and I would likely be right-- and I wouldn't want to refund money for something I didn't do/cause.
Either a breeder has parvo, or they don't. Particularly now that there is the breeders vet involved saying that they don't, I would be apt to believe that the Parvo did not come from the breeder.
Puppy Lemon laws are a scary thing. Puppies are not cars, they are living things and there are no 'guarantees'. Breeders aren't God.
How can a breeder guarantee what type of care the puppy gets when a person walks out the door with it? You can tell them all day not to expose the puppy to things, yet they let the puppy walk on the floor at the vet, or let people touch the puppy at the vet, or take it to a Dog park, or pet super store, or a relative that had a Dog with parvo 3 months ago. Then the Dog gets sick X days later and they blame the breeder.
Some lemon laws want 2 weeks, well we all know that a puppy could definitely contact Pavo elsewhere after 2 weeks. How is that a breeders fault? Yet they have to pay for other people's negligence?
I believe that 'health warranties' written correctly are private contacts that supersede lemon laws. That is how the 'Large Petstore' that advertises on here gets away with selling sick Puppies in a state that has one of the toughest lemon laws. Yet they are pretty unaffected. |
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| echo50 |
| Posted 4/16/2008 5:12:05 PM |
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Active: 04-11-2008
Posts: 9
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The puppy is doing really well. He is eating on his own now. If he can keep the food down he will be able to come home tomrrow. we got him from a kennel in michigan. I did know about parvo before we bought him. He was not put on the ground anyplace on the way home. The only Dog that has ever been in my back yard is our 4 year old Dog who we do not even let in the front yard. No other dogs have been in our yard in 17 years. IT is totaly fenced in. We allways take our shoes off at the front door. What are the odds we brought it to our home or he got it at the kennel where she has 4 different types of dogs she breeds. That is alot of people comming in your yard looking at Puppies. We were also let in her house with our shoes on. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 6:52:43 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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im glad to hear that your puppy is recovering. you will more than likely have a hefty vet bill. if i were you, being that there is a question of where this parvo came from, i would hold her responsible for 50% of the vet bill. that is meeting you 1/2 way. i would let her know that this is to be paid immediately and if not, let her know that you are going to send the animal controll officer out there. i doubt that she would want that, you can find the number to report this incident by calling her county. they will go out and investigate her kennel. good luck!! |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 7:00:19 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 this is for beaglebrat, YES!! beagle, i have dealt with parvo in tha past. we had 3 litters of Puppies. 1 litter was vaccinated with 2 series of vanguard5plus and 2 litters had the neopar 1st and then the vanguard5plus. the 1st litter broke with parvo early on a weds am. by weds afternoon we were running for our lives due to a natural disaster. we had less than 2 hours to evacuate. there were NO choices. we loaded up our dogs, Puppies. and personals and left with them. by late weds night,there were no utilities, including water. during the 3 weeks we were gone, we cared diligently for these Puppies with what we had to work with. we lost the entire 1st litter and were pretty sure most wouldnt make it period. the Puppies that were vaccinated with the neopar 1st, never showed a single symptom. all had been exposed over and over again. i have many friends who breed and show. we all scream neopar in a huge way. this is why i said what i said. next post |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 7:09:13 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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this is why i blame any breeder who sends a puppy home and it shows with parvo, or any other virus. there is absolutely NO reason to get in a hurry to send a puppy home who is not ready to go. when i say ready, i mean, at least 2 vaccines, wormed properly, eating dry kibble. when a puppy goes to its new home, it should be the absolute picture of health with the proper protection it needs to flourish. anything less than this is not a good thing. people are accepting this puppy into their home as a new part of their family. there is nothing worse than watching a puppy suffer and run up massive vet bills and possibly not make it because a breeder was hasty. this is the breeders fault in my opinion. had she given the proper vaccines, this would not have happened. i will guarantee you that she has more behind this one falling ill. unfortunately, this customer will probably not find this out. i do agree with the pet lemon laws. they are written to protect the consumer and without them, shady breeders, millers, etc. can get by with whatever they want. i feel very strongly that this breeder should step up to the plate and pay 1/2 this posters vet bill if not all. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 8:56:34 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Moggie you said you are rather new to forums. So I will just say there are always two sides to every story.
While we may all believe Echo, and that s/he is VERY SURE that they did not allow the puppy to contract parvo, we have not heard the breeders side of the story. This is ALL ONE SIDED INFORMATION.
Now, if the breeder has never had parvo and their current litters do not have parvo, I am sure their version of things would be very different.
I had a lot of dogs/Puppies and people coming through my house, but I NEVER HAD PARVO for over 10 years, but then one day, they did.
Probably from someone coming in to look at Puppies who had looked at another kennel that had parvo.
I still don't think it is 'irresponsible' of breeders that have never had parvo to NOT give neopar. There is no reason for them to give it. You really SHOULD NOT give 5 week old Puppies vaccinations unless you have to. If you have had parvo YOU HAVE to give the shot.
Why? Because you are risking their lives otherwise. As Natural Dane and all the VET PROTOCOLS will tell you, it is probably NOT the best thing for Puppies. but when the alternative is to get parvo-- you have to make that tough decision.
I would NOT recommend Neopar for every single puppy in the whole world, if there has been no history of Parvo in the home/kennel.
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 9:31:56 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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As far as puppy lemon laws, I don't support 'mandatory' anything concerning living animals.
You would be okay if after 2 weeks (14 days) one of your Puppies came down with Parvo? Which I know, I know, is unlikely because of 'neopar' just say you weren't
'enlightened' yet-- and it was before you knew about neopar.
It is just as likely after 2 weeks that the puppy became ill AFTER it left the breeders.
I also don't want to be mandatorily responsible for being finanically raped by someone elses shady VET!
It isn't really fair that you are responsible for paying for things that you have no control over. I have seen and heard of things over the years that I wouldn't want to be responsible for paying for.
For example $600 to treat ear mites on a 8 week old puppy.
$200-300 to treat coccidia (no dehydration).
$500-600 PLUS to treat KENNEL COUGH-- which probably could have been left untreated.
Personally I have had a FAT PUPPY, that I told them to watch how much the little guy ate. The vet tried telling them it may have a 'small opening between the stomach and intestines'.
The puppy was eating, pooping fine, yet barium enema and HOURLY XRAYS later.... a fine fat puppy! I don't want to be responsible for vets to go on fishing expeditions, because they want to make money.
My health warranty covers important bad stuff. My heart guarantee is 3 years. I will take responsibility if it is FAIR and reasonable. If people choose to not purchase from someone who is fair and reasonable, because they want CHEAP, it is buyer beware in my opinion.
I have purchased a lot of dogs that required a lot of vet bills. It is the cost of owning a dog. If they don't like it, buy a stuffed one. |
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| christinadorris |
| Posted 4/17/2008 10:22:08 AM |
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Active: 11-05-2007
Posts: 40
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In no way should the breeder have to pay for the entire vet bill. IF the breeder is found to have been responsible for the parvo, the most s/he should be responsible for is the price of the pup. Many breeders will replace instead of refund. The breeder should not be responsible for the decisions made by the new owner. If they rack up a $4,000 bill for this, but only paid $500 for the puppy the breeder should not be responsible for the bill or even half of the bill. I doubt she paid much for this puppy.
How much is your bill? What did you pay for the puppy? What kind of pup is it? |
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| echo50 |
| Posted 4/17/2008 11:58:06 AM |
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Active: 04-11-2008
Posts: 9
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We get to bring him home today. I paid 450.00 for him. He is a sheltie.
I was not even asking her for vet bills. I was asking for a refund of the price I paid for him. I do know that there is expence with owing a dog.
But you do not expect that kind of expence 4 1/2 days after you get the puppy. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 12:50:38 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Quote echo50: We get to bring him home today. I paid 450.00 for him. He is a sheltie.
I was not even asking her for vet bills. I was asking for a refund of the price I paid for him. I do know that there is expence... |
Echo, I don't want you to think I am talking or directing things specifically at you. Most of the stuff I was saying was 'in general'.
You do have a tough situation. I am glad your puppy is doing better.
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 1:08:41 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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okie dokey then...here i go!! i have to disagree with you beaglebrat this time, respectively again, NO puppy should go home with coccidia, kennel cough, or ear mites. these things are far too simple and inexpensive to take care of before sending a puppy home. yes, the vets will get you for these very issues every time, and, so should they. most laws state that in order to get a health certificate the puppy must be 8 weeks of age, have had at least 1 vaccine, be completely paracite free. there is certainly nothing wrong with this. why should the new owner have to foot this expense when the breeder sent the puppy home in this manner??? an ounce of prevention is ..well you know the saying. clearly it would be much much easier, less expensive, and nicer for your puppy, its new owner, not to mention your reputation, to send the puppy home in this manner, at least 8 weeks of age(depending on the breed) 2 vaccines, clean and well groomed,nails clipped, ears cleaned, solid stools, completely paracite free, with the proper paperwork, food, and care plan for the new owner. then you wont have any issues period!! i dont!! i have learned over the years over and over again that my customers are very happy. i think i know what you will say to this email and i am waiting as i have another disagreement if so!! |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 1:15:18 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 YES the breeder should refund at least 1/2 the money the owner paid for her puppy. i will go as far to say she should step up to the plate and offer. the new owner had her puppy for 4.5 days before it started showing symptoms. come on!! we all know whos to blame here. the breeder could at least meet her 1/2 way. i do not believe that any breeder has the right to sell any puppy and then turn their back on the new owner. yes i understand that there are situations out of a breeders controll, and i also understand that vets will take great advantage of any given situation, however, this one is a no brainer!!! a replacement puppy from this breeder, i dont think so!! |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/17/2008 2:15:32 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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Glad to hear the puppy is coming home, please get him on some probotics to help repair he damage both from the parvo and the drugs used to treat parvo they are not very expensive and I dont think theres any one here that wont agree that it will help.
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 2:29:46 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote moggie: okie dokey then...here i go!! i have to disagree with you beaglebrat this time, respectively again, NO puppy should go home with coccidia, kennel cough, or ear mites. these things are far too simple... |
Its okay, we can disagree. I will just say that it is easy to SAY that you are going to cover things, but few breeders WILL cover things when they actually come up.
Crap happens. I don't have my Puppies in a 'pen' or 'kennel' type situation, so for a few YEARS I battled Coccidia being in my ground. Common. Has nothing to do with being clean.
I would test them, treat them and still due to the STRESS OF SHIPPING, occasionally Puppies would get diarrhea from coccidia after they went to their new homes.
It used to be very tough to control 100% with ALBON. I used to just send it with them as preventative, knowing I didn't want 'unhappy customers' or to incur a big vet bill.
Despite best efforts, these are still living creatures.
I would probably still be having problems if I didn't learn on another forum about Marquis.
Now, yes, it is very easy to insure Puppies don't leave with coccidia, but this is a fairly new product being used on Puppies. and it's not even labeled for them.
I still don't have to agree with legislation mandating what I will and will not cover. People have the choice of who they purchase from.
For example, I know of a breeder of Rhodesian Ridgebacks that will not ship to Florida because he got stiffed for the entire price of an expensive puppy (due to their lemon law) because after being shipped they said it had ringworm.
Ringworm? Really? $1200 puppy for FREE because of ringworm? Puppy lemon laws!
Be careful what you wish for.
Maybe it is because I have made my share of purchases where 'crap happens' and I just take care of it, out of my own pocket and go 'lesson learned'.
I don't go crying to who ever I bought it from expecting things. I may shoot them a nasty e-mail thanking them for not telling me about an issue, but that's about it.
I think MINOR ISSUES come up and that is that. Once you think you have all of your 'issues' under control, something else WILL eventually come up, and you won't know about it, until a puppy tests for it. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/17/2008 2:51:32 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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lysol the old fashion brown bottle kind, mixed with bleach will kill Coccidia but only mix what you can use at that time because it cakes up.
I used bleach in a yard sprayer many times just for general cleaning, the crap they put into city drinking water is a heck of allot worse for us and the enviroment, plus well owners probably already know its said that dumping a couple of gallons in the well is a good thing to do, my jury is still out on that, but when you have 3 or more danes peeing in the same spot, its the only way to get the odor out. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 3:13:14 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Since I started using 'Marquis' I have never had an issue again. It treats it QUICK, you give 2 doses, not days of dosing like Albon.
It is fairly expensive. It is $200-280 for a tube, but it is a lot better than having Puppies with coccidia, and the tube does last a long time. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/17/2008 5:06:05 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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i can remember buying albon by the gallon and mixing it with dyne, I can feel you on the coccidia things, one thing about breeding I dont miss, that and hookworms. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/17/2008 6:05:48 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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i also understand where you are comming from with the coccidia. i also bought marquis, but was too afraid to use it. my Puppies are tiny!!! and it was just too iffy for me. i havent had any coccidia issues in a long time and i have no clue what changed. it wasnt me! but..i much prefer the albon tablets. they seem to work much much better. do you also treat with flagyl and panacur? |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/17/2008 7:33:51 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Safeguard which I believe is the same as panacur. Active ingredient is fendbendazole.
Metrondizole is another staple in my house. Along with Probiotics to put back the good stomach bacteria.
It is pretty much the science that is working RIGHT NOW, until the next thing comes up, and God knows I am always on the look out.
I have used Marquis in very tiny Puppies. First dose can be as early as 4 days. I give it at about 5 weeks if the stool starts to get runny, and then at 8 weeks if they are going home, or when ever they are being shipped, just to be on the safe side.
I have pretty liberal vets that let me try things. Some things work, others don't, but I am glad they let me try new things. |
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