| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:03:54 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 this is for mary and dobes....please an opinion?? would you say that the breeders who show their dogs would be more so able to use better judgement with breeding than the person who doesnt?? and would you say that testing for genetic issues is a guarantee that a genetic issue will not arrise in a puppy?? and would please explain your personal view of the methods used by breeders who show pertaining to their breeding programs?? and would you also explain what exactly your view is on the manner of how the dogs they are showing came to be?? and could you explain exactly what their purpose of showing is and the benefits they reap???? |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:16:48 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote moggie: this is for mary and dobes....please an opinion?? would you say that the breeders who show their dogs would be more so able to use better judgement with breeding than the person who doesnt??... |
oooh I have a topic I am going to start that you will be interested in! Involving my neighbors GSD and hip dysplasia. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:20:44 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 ooooohhhhhhh!!!! |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:25:00 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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| Quote moggie: kathystone.....whats your point?? i read your post and cant find the point?? we are now back to dogs in shelters....once again...the largest population would be mixed breed LARGE dogs...right...occasional... |
I will have to disagree with your post, though true in many ways, it is the breeders fault.
The breeder should have the Dog chipped or some other means of ID. The breeder should always be willing to take the Dog back, and above all if careful screaning and reference checks where done more often they wouldnt be going into irresponsible homes. Death is about all you cant prepaid much for and just hope the ID works. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:32:20 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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Quote moggie: dane,
i believe that a neopar vaccine at 5 wks of age and a galaxy at 8 will keep any puppy from getting the virus...isnt it better to prevent than treat?? tamiflu was supposed to be having... |
I believe vaccines blow the immune system.
The parvaid and parvo guard have been used just as successfully on large and small breeds. A friend who breeds dachies lost many dogs this year and the last litter I had her not vaccinate them and use the product on then if the symtoms took hold, those where the only Puppies to live this year. Granted this is still in the prelims and for me to say for you not to vaccinate your pups would be unethical.
My point may be a harsh one, but if we continue to breed dogs that are not healthy enough on their own to fight the virus and rely on vaccines and not mother nature (think of how many times thats backfired) then are we doing the dogs any justice? I dont want to see any puppy die dont get me wrong but to keep the k9s strong in the long run they should be able to cope with out vaccines. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:47:40 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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i cant agree with this...i just cant..i being a breeder for almost 25 years...have seen the horrors of parvo..especially in the smaller breeds...the suffering just isnt worth my taking the chance...i would rather see them surrer for the 10 of a second with the ouch of the needle than to have their guts turned inside out and bleed out until death....and dont forget that once this happens...EVERYTHING is then contaminated and everyone is put in jeopardy....i wont even take mine into the vet until i have 2 hits in them because this is where all the sick dogs go....i truely believe that i have found the answer to stop this in its tracks..i am the great protector of my brood(figure of speech only) and once i use the 2nd vaccine following up the neopar..i can ease into feeling safe for them...i have not had any adverse of the effects of vaccines...short term or long term except for the lepto vaccine which i absolutely will not allow...however...think of it this way...you can believe your way is the best way and i can respect that...but...once your puppy has gone to its new owner without the proper protection then it becomes out of your controll..no vet is going to treat a puppy with parvaid...they are more than likely going to do the intravenious old method...and it usually doesnt work you can sing to the choir all you want but the new owner is going to sid with the vet...and this will leave you wide open with your puppy in distress...so...one more thing...if i were to ask to purchase a puppy from you..and you were to tell me it had no vaccines...what do you think i would think?? i guess at this point i would have to say that i would RUN...and what if i bonded with that puppy and decided not to run...if i requested that you hold my puppy in your possession and give it the proper vaccines suggested by veterinarians before i picked it up...what would you tell me?? i wish i could think outside the box on this one...but i just cant seem to do this...i am a very very very serious believer in protection rather than treatment... |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:54:27 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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Most feel the same as you do, and Im not trying to convince you to do other wise.
As far as Puppies. I sold my last litter of small dogs on a no vacc, no kibble contracts and will with the Danes also, the breeders which are many of the most respected ones in my breed just wont sell to some one who wants to do those things, and with waiting list miles long there is no shortage, most are on there 5th generations of natural rearing with not a hint of parvo.
Google natural rearing dogs and Dog vaccinosis if you want to learn more. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 10:56:15 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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all three of my vets use parvaid now, fyi
google Dr.Kim woodstock Ga |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 4/4/2008 11:27:08 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Okay ladies. When we are talking about Puppies infected with Parvo, potentially dying, any of us are going to treat it how we think is best.
It doesn't have to be the same treatment, as long as you find it effective. I believe in throwing everything at them including the kitchen sink.
I was breaking open echinacea tablets and throwing that in to the pepto because I heard that echinacea boosted their immune system to help beat the virus.
I don't think that Parvaid will hurt a puppy with parvo any more than tamiflu. People just do things differently, neither are right or wrong if they are your Puppies.
I do recommend a treatment of Penicillin, Tamiflu, some anti-nausea crap the vet prescribed, along with pepto to settle the stomach, forta-flora to help grow back the cilia in the intestines, and of course subcutaneous hydration of dextrose.
And I do swear by Neopar, because I can't risk NOT giving it to my Puppies.
But that is just me. That is what I have had good luck with. I have never used Parvaid and hopefully I will never have the need to use it in the future, thanks to neopar....KNOCK ON WOOD! |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 11:28:54 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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hi dane...please tell me are these holistic vets?? and another question to you...we have all seen the horror story on the news of the little 11 yr old girl who died of complications due to diabetes...because...her parents did not get her available medical treatment...they prayed instead while watching her die...they did not believe in doctors or healthcare...yet they had hmo's....what is the difference here?? the fact that there is available vaccines on the market to protect from a virus to be used...and if not..isnt even that one puppy that succumbed to the virus due to lack of protection...one too many?? |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 11:49:52 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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no, regular everyday run of the mill vets, most use it with the traditional methods but like BB said they are willing to do anything to get the pup to survive, now Dr.Kim is a holistic vet. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 11:52:52 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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As far as the little girl, religion does conflict with health care sometimes but this isnt religion its another method of rearing that many people are being successful with.
It took me a long time to take the leap of faith and it has yet to bite me in the butt.
Can you say that your method of vaccinating guarantees that the Dog wont get sick? |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:05:22 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
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this is a tough question...but here are my answers...im sure that faith is being successful in some situations, however, i would have to say that it is not the preferred method for the majority...not to mention that these parents are facing criminal charges for neglect...that is neglect in getting their daughter the professional medical attention that was available to save her life....and the answer to the 2nd question..yes..i believe that the 2 vaccines given in the manner of which i stated..will guarantee that parvo will not prevail...can i guarantee that the Dog will not get sick with anything...no..i cant..but neither can you with your strong beliefs...and...i respect them..however...if faith is all it takes...then why use the parvaid???
threw that in to show a way of thinking again about this little girl who didnt have a choice....anything more said here would point to starting a religious conversation and im not sure that ok?? |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:26:26 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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I never said that natural reared Puppies did not get parvo, they just have a much higher survival rate and the chances are slim. Parvaid was created first to sooth show dogs with upset stomaches from the stress and was later used as a successful way to help cope with parvo and from there it took off and has gained more and more popularity, no vet that is willing to try can deny the benifits of using this and if they do its because parvaid is $50 and the vet bills are ten times that so they lose money.
Im glad you are willing to say that the vaccines will prevent the disease because the manufacture and no decent vet will.
As far as the little girl, I dont see the connection you are trying to make, you are talking about a choice that was based on the faith of God. There are ways to treat diabetic people and pets naturaly and they could have very well made those choices which they chose not to do anything, the only reason this gained media attention was because it was based on religion. Im a firm believer that If there is a problem, the God gives us the means to solve it and gave us the brains to figure it out. Man will never triumph Him and thats been proven many times in history.
In what I have seen many times over the course of me researching this, is that very, very few non vaccinated Puppies have gotten parvo, and those that did, recovered better than the vaccinated dogs because the immune system was healthy enough on its own.
The vast amount of common mutt owners do not vaccinate down south as its considered a waste of money, yet the dogs are not dying off like flies.
since we are at the start of parvo season Im going to do some studies to see what I get.
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:31:25 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
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"ALL!!!!! of these dogs are in shelters....why??? because of irresponsible people...this is NOT the fault of any type of breeder....it is not the irresponsibility of the breeder that lands these dogs in the shelters...it is purely ...irresponsibility of people letting their dogs run loose and become impregnated by whatever comes along."
First of all, breeders should be responsible for every puppy they produce.
Their FIRST responsibility is to screen homes for suitability. Granted, that doesn't mean a responsible breeder won't get fooled from time to time but proper screening does cut down on poor placements.
Their next responsibility is to have a contract to provide a safety net for their Puppies. That contract should spell out that Puppies.dogs who can not be kept must be returned to the breeder. Again, it's not foolproof but if the breeder keeps in touch with the owners, always making it clear that they are "there" for the Puppies and their owners and that they care, it goes a long way in making sure that the owners remember this option if ever needed.
A number of responsible breeders make sure the Puppies are microchipped and leave their own names on the Puppies so they are the ones contacted if a puppy finds its way to a shelter.
A number of responsible breeders also spay/neuter their pet Puppies before they leave so that even if by chance the Dog ends up running around loose, it isn't getting pregnant or creating more Puppies. Or they may have spay/neuter contracts and offer a rebate once the spaying/neutering takes place. Again, attention to follow-up on these contracts goes a long way to ensuring that the spay/neuter happens.
As a breeder, I'm not going to sit here and say not my problem if people are being irresponsible with my Puppies. It IS my problem and my responsibility to try to ensure to the best of my ability that doesn't happen. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:32:22 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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now i am really confused...will have to reread again and get back later...have to get back to work...please do keep us informed with your research....
im not bashing faith....but...i know this..if it were my little girl...and i saw her in distress..i would be running for the hospital...if i had to physically run 20 miles...i wonder what they are thinking about their faith now...that she is gone and they're hearts are broken?? probably that it was her time to go i'll bet... |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:42:17 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 399
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"would you say that the breeders who show their dogs would be more so able to use better judgement with breeding than the person who doesnt??"
Yes, definitely. Breeders who show have continual access to seeing and putting their hands on good dogs. We see them move, we experience their temperaments, we see what they produce, we see what has come before them, we get to know which lines are strong/weak in what area, we see which lines click with which, we see what doesn't work. We aren't sitting at home breeding in a vacuum.
"and would you say that testing for genetic issues is a guarantee that a genetic issue will not arrise in a puppy??"
Of course not. But trying to ensure they don't happen through proper testing is way better than doing nothing and just hoping nothing happens.
"and would please explain your personal view of the methods used by breeders who show pertaining to their breeding programs??"
I don't understand your question.
"and would you also explain what exactly your view is on the manner of how the dogs they are showing came to be??"
That's a pretty broad question. The dogs being shown could have come from any conceivable manner. Considering that anyone with a registered Dog could conceivably show it, be it good or bad, how can I say?
"and could you explain exactly what their purpose of showing is and the benefits they reap????"
The purpose of showing is supposed to be to prove the merits of breeding stock. I think I answered this already in my first paragraph.
But I will add that when you're serious about showing, additionally you make better contacts and you have access to better dogs when it comes to breeding. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 4/4/2008 12:42:47 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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here is something some breeders use and some dont, the jury is still out but I have heard good things,
edited per forum rules maoseger1010 |
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| bigdogg233576 |
| Posted 4/6/2008 8:19:58 AM |
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Active: 03-20-2008
Posts: 49
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Quote MaryAndDobes: Well, if you're defining them in some different way than we are, then I guess it's no surprise that you'd see it differently.
Most of us define bybs as this chart does:
http://www.geocities.com/Pe... |
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html if that is what is and is not a byb then are you saying that people who breed labradoodles,puggles and other designer breeds are byb because you think you are better than others dont mean you are and i dont get why some people are so judgemental i thought this was a site where people could get info on dogs and help if they needed it not made fun of by responsible breeders if you love your breed you would have helped that person why do you pick and choose who to help does it make you a responsible breeder to pick and choose teachers dont pick and choose who the teach they try to educate as many people as they can and so do responsible breeders that want everyone to know about their breed of choice and why people ask what some of you call dumb question and dont answer are only dumb question you dont answer them |
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| dutchie63 |
| Posted 4/7/2008 2:27:12 PM |
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Active: 04-07-2008
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My opinion is NEVER to buy from a BYB and/or Puppy Mills..
Go to a rescue or shelter, many are waiting for a good home.
Have you guys not watched Oprah last friday, and puppymillers are just words..get a brain, they are abusing animals left right and center, no of course not the Puppies. they bring in cash..but the adult dogs..are being bred and bred until they die..
what a nice life..I don't think so..
edited M |
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