| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:06:12 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote maoseger1010: B.B.
I have read and reread this post several times. So far I have not been able to pin point where someone is bashing you. People are asking you some tough questions and a couple of people may have... |
I don't know if it is on this thread or a couple of the others where basically people are saying that ANY mixed breeding done by anyone is bad. To me, that is bashing breeding simply because you don't agree with it.
It doesn't matter how many times I answer that question, people are still going to make negative comments about it, and to me eventually becomes breeder bashing.
I don't mind answering questions, but when I can't comment on any other thread because of it-- or with out it being mentioned on topics that have NOTHING to do with mixed breeding in any way shape or form, then it is breeder bashing. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:06:29 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 here comes my 2 cents again....ethical breeders arwe breeders who:
1. have done the research on their breed and the care of their animals
2.who keep their animals in tip top condition , well cared for and clean.
3. who know what is going on in their breeding program and know how to deal with it.
4.who are willing to put in the hours it takes to properly cre for their animals.
5. who work hand in hand with their veterinarians and have their seal of approval.
6. who knows how to properly care for, vaccinate, deworm, and pre screen their Puppies.
7. who know each and every word, each and every trick, each and every problem, each and every medication, and have the knowledge and experience to immediately act on it.
8. who keep their animals on the best foods, best vitamins, best regimens to the best of their knowledge.
9. who take the time to screen the homes of which their Puppies are going to..and to always be there for the Puppies new owners...
10.who keeps their animals groomed and clean....and free of paracites..teeth clean..and have a regular vaccinating and deworming regimen....
11. and last but not least..one who can go to bed at night knowing they have done all they could possibly do in that days time to insure the cleanliness and comnfort of their animals |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:18:26 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote Mdoggy: When you mix breeds you are now getting all the "faults" of both breeds. Hips, liver, hearts etc. You are breeding IN all these problems which will have to be delt with by a new owner. Each breed carries... |
Oh my gosh, you can't have it both ways. People are bashing breeders for INBREEDING because you are doubling up on the bad genes and it causes problems. Now you say mixing two completely different gene pools doubles up on the problems.
From what I have found, I don't think so.
Say you breed a Shih Tzu to a shih tzu. Shih Tzu's are know for kidney problems. So you are twice as likely to have purebred Puppies with kidney problems.
Stay you breed a Shih Tzu to a Boxer (OBVIOUSLY NOT--I just know what are the MAJOR problems in these two breeds). Boxers are known for heart problems.
BUT these are two completely separate gene pools. It does not mean that a box-tzu (LOL) would have both heart and Kidney problems. That is bull.
You are watering down the problems and not doubling up on them. That IS why
When you diversify a gene pool any gene pool you are LESS likely to come up with genetic problem.
Genetics has theories about it, though I don't know if any of us are genetic scientists. Here is an article.
http://www.answers.com/topic/heterosis-1?cat=technology |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:31:34 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote moggie: here comes my 2 cents again....ethical breeders arwe breeders who:
1. have done the research on their breed and the care of their animals
2.who keep their animals in tip top condition... |
Wow, we agree, but it is still just opinion. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:44:00 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 did you not know that each and every breed is accompanied with a list of things that could possibly go wrong?? wouldnt you think that the show breeder who is line breeding for the perfect looking Dog for a purpose of their own greed would be breeding these faults and health problems into their program...but..they are simply trying to better the breed right???? sure they are and looks are deceiving...this is where you will find your liver shunts, heart murmers, crypt orchid, underbites, overbites, hernias, patella luxations...etc...i would love to know the numbers on this...genetic health issues in show kennels verses hobby breeders...id be willing to bet you that there are more ethics in the hobby breeders hands as they are simply trying to produce a healthy little pet of whom meets the breed standards...not a clone of sort..by formulations of the perfect looking Dog to show....lets not forget...akc does accept line breeding...too many show breeders will breed the father back to the daughter and so on and so forth..creating these freaks of nature...i have seen the horrors first hand and would prefer not to see them again...it is heartbreaking to see the health issues of the Puppies that are produced and end up being euthanized or passed down to unknowing new owners that are left with monster vet bills and heartbreaks..just for the mere purpose of creating the perfect one out of a litter to show......very sad...but sooo true...please forgive me if this hits hard....and we all know that there are many ethical breeders out there in the show world...but there are far too many who are not....i myself have dogs who could and would take titles...i opt out simply because i would rather spend my time caring for my dogs and i have no desire to compete with whos Dog might be prettier than the next...guess that would be only a matter of opinion anyway...beauty pagent..no thanks...breed standards..can be found in the akc book of breeds... |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/25/2008 9:58:52 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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Im posting a thread on line breeding, as soon as its approved then maybe it can be understood better.
When done right its a wonderful tool, but as some of the threads people have opened or responded too, its rather obvious that way too many people are not doing correctly and are screwing up dogs. |
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| Mdoggy |
| Posted 3/25/2008 10:41:21 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 14
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beaglebrat, pure line breeders have spent years breeding OUT the faults in their dogs. Breeding "mixes" is literally breeding the problems back in and adding problems. That IS the truth. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 10:50:19 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote Mdoggy: beaglebrat, pure line breeders have spent years breeding OUT the faults in their dogs. Breeding "mixes" is literally breeding the problems back in and adding problems. That IS the truth. |
Lol, no it is not. I don't know where you got your advanced degree in genetics, but it is just not accurate information.
By your rational, I guess no one should EVER adopt a mixed breed Dog from a shelter because of risk of having so many unknown genetic problems. Particularly the true hienz 57 mixes that may be a combination of 5-6 'breeds'. Wouldn't you be saying those dogs are just a combination of all of the genetic faults of all breeds then?
I don't think so. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 3/25/2008 1:13:43 PM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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please!!! mdoggy..did a breeder tell you this??????????
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/25/2008 1:36:53 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 399
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"I know of some people with Champion studs that are pretty lienient on what bitches they will breed, because they DO feel exactly as you mentioned.
And they ARE correct. If they don't allow someone to breed to their stud they will find a lessor quality stud to breed with--So, there you go."
So, there you go what?
I don't know why anyone would wish to bring down the quality of their dogs in order to (maybe?) raise the quality of lesser dogs.
Believe me, I've been contacted for stud service by people who own less than stellar females. It's not my function to ensure they get stud service from whoever they want whenever they want. I consider it my function to try to educate them to do better, and to do better, they should spay what they have and acquire a better girl to get them on the way to breeding better Puppies.
I try to educate them as to the problems with their dogs and try to help them see how breeding that Dog doesn't improve the breed or contribute to a good genepool.
It's also my job to protect what has come before me. Breeders before me have done a good job in producing the dogs I have, and I don't want to let them down by breeding their lines to inferiour dogs. I'm not bringing my dogs down to a lower level. I'm trying to do better with them, not worse.
Some people are open to that education. Others are not. But at least I can say I tried to help them do better. And doing better doesn't mean automatically providing them with stud service. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 1:43:39 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote MaryAndDobes: "I know of some people with Champion studs that are pretty lienient on what bitches they will breed, because they DO feel exactly as you mentioned.
And they ARE correct. If they don't allow someone... |
Well, if you allowed them to breed with a Champion stud, their bitch would have better Puppies than what she would, had someone not let them use their correct stud. That is what. There may be a few very nice looking Puppies in the litter. It is out-crossing. Are they all going to be great? No, but they WILL be better than if the bitch owner goes to the next door neighbors purebred that has no Champions in the pedigree.
You may feel 'righteous' and better about not allowing people to use your studs, but really, I doubt you are changing too many minds of someone who purchased a bitch with the intent of raising a litter. THEY WILL JUST GO ELSEWHERE.
So if anything, you are helping create MORE crappy quality Puppies by denying them assess to something better. Congratulations.
Honestly, how many litters have you ever had? Purina, Royal Canine, Eukanuba, almost every company that gives out 'puppy packets' requires the 'breeder' to have at least a couple litters per year and 5 breeding dogs to be considered a 'breeder' at all.
If you have a litter every few years, I consider that to just be a show person or enthusiast. There are a lot more people in to the breeding aspect of things. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/25/2008 2:03:40 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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Im sure telling some one that their Dog isnt good enough to breed to yours really keeps some one from breeding that dog, BB is right about that. If you come off to people as you have me with the holier than thou as you have me, then I dont see where your doing any one any favors as telling some one their beloved pet or something they have put allot of money into is not good enough very few are going to listen. Now, using your stud to breed their bitch isnt the way to do it either.
I was so ready to listen to a rb about dogs, and all you could do is judge me for my past, thank goodness all are not like you and I found my mentor |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/25/2008 2:23:57 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote naturaldane: Im sure telling some one that their Dog isnt good enough to breed to yours really keeps some one from breeding that dog, BB is right about that. If you come off to people as you have me with the holier... |
I can tell you from my own experience. As I have said, 12 years ago my original bitch was pet bred. 2 Ch in her 3 gen pedigree. WONDERFUL DOG, smart, healthy, ended up living VERY LONG for the breed.
The first time I was searching for a stud I TRIED to find the best quality stud I could find. I was willing to drive 3 hours to use a Champion stud I had found and liked the looks of.
I contacted the breeder who was pretty rude and nasty basically told me the same things that Mary would have. I thought she was kind of a jerk. I ended up using a stud in my area-- he wasn't a Champion, but he did have a respectable pedigree. That stud was just owned by a normal 'pet' owner as well, looking to make some money.
It wasn't until several years later, again looking for a stud for the same bitch that I found a lifelong friend and mentor WITH SHOW DOGS, that helped me in every way.
I got there either way, but my breeding program would have probably advanced (in the 'show respect') better and faster had the first person with a Champion dog, WORKED with me instead of shutting me down.
What would have been wrong with breeding my bitch and then helping me keep the best puppy from that litter? Befriending me, and slowly showing me what they thought was correct?
It was probably 5 years and 5-6 litters before 'limited registration' meant anything to me, or that I truly understood the reasons for it.
A good stud owner will help you evaluate your Puppies. and answer your questions, give SUGGESTIONS but not be a complete dictator concerning YOUR litter. |
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| jenngull77 |
| Posted 3/25/2008 3:23:14 PM |
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Active: 03-25-2008
Posts: 3
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| Quote jcmaddock10: i only brought up the part about my uncle being a breeder because I was always with him and loved helping him out. I said nothing about him showing any of his animals. I have went to a Dog show and hated... |
 I don't think showing your Dog is wrong. I just happen to think that when people talk about breeders (good breeders) asking if they have ever shown their dogs, that would be like me asking a mother if her daughter had won a beauty pagent before she got pregnant and had a child. Now wouldn't it? I don't think just because you show your Dog gives you the right to go about leting your dogs do the deed and create, I think you earn the right when u know everything there is to know about that breed, and do constant research about that breed. And then you also have to have the time, energy and money for that matter. You can not go into anything serious being stupid and uneducated. |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/25/2008 4:05:54 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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I knew ABs inside and out, but was still a byb.
You can really compare beauty pagents to Dog shows with people vrs dogs, its not the same thing, however I have yet to see a pagent winner be married to less than a million dollar plus husband.
People that normally spend thousands of hours and dollars on their Dog to finish it know the inside and out of the breed or have a mentor that does and is learning. |
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| Havluv524 |
| Posted 3/26/2008 8:08:13 PM |
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Active: 07-14-2006
Posts: 25
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Here is the problem with people breeding mixes, BB. Most of these people have NO CLUE what genetic health issues the breeds they are breeding together are predisposed to, and because they are pandering to a market, most of the time they do no health testing and no pedigree research. For instance, say you breed a havanese and a maltese together. According to your theory, the resulting Puppies should not be prone to the health issues of either the havanese OR the maltese because they are a mix. Guess what? Patellar luxation and liver shunts are two health problems that occur in BOTH breeds. Even though they are different breeds, you still run the risk of having one or both health issues crop up in the Puppies.
Let's just take purebred or mix out of the equation. ANY TIME a breeder breeds ANY LITTER, whether it is a litter of purebred havanese or a puggle, for instance...they should still be doing pedigree research to know what is behind each parent, and doing the health testing on each parent for each breed's predisposed inherited health issues. The problem is...most of the breeders who are breeding mixes don't do ANY of that. No health testing, no pedigree research...just put two dogs together and crank out as many Puppies as possible to satisfy market demand...and don't bother to put much more into it because that would cut into their profit margin. I'm not saying you are like this BB, but that is what the majority of people that I have run across breeding mixes have been like.
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| Havluv524 |
| Posted 3/26/2008 8:09:00 PM |
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Active: 07-14-2006
Posts: 25
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Also...linebreeding and inbreeding is not the great satan of Dog breeding. Once again, it all boils down to knowing your lines, doing your pedigree research, and doing your health testing. It is not for everyone, but in the hands of a reputable, knowledgable breeder it is another tool to breed away from problems and set type. It will give a breeder more consistency in a litter and can actually help breed AWAY from certain health issues. It all depends on the knowledge and skill of the breeder, their intentions, and what their ultimate motivation is for breeding. I don't bash or pass judgment on other people for their decisions, and if BB truly feels that a puggle makes a better pet than any AKC recognized purebred, then nothing we say on this forum will change her mind. All I ask is that if people are breeding mixes, at least try to ensure that the parents are as healthy as possible regardless of breed, because in the end, it is the innocent puppy and the devastated owner that will pay the price. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/26/2008 8:35:19 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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| Quote Havluv524: Here is the problem with people breeding mixes, BB. Most of these people have NO CLUE what genetic health issues the breeds they are breeding together are predisposed to, and because they are pandering... |
I will play.
As I have said on numerous occasions, people SHOW PEOPLE, BYB, who ever, in small breeds just do NOT health test.
Check it out for yourself on the OFA website:
http://www.offa.org/stats.html#breed
Here are the statistics of just a couple of the breeds we mentioned. Keep in mind that OFA has been collecting data for the hip tests for over 30 years. So these hip test numbers are for all tests in the whole 30 years. They have been collecting data for the other tests for around about 10 years, so again these are all tested for 10 years.
Pug
Cardiac= 20 (I need to send mine in)
Elbow= 83
Hips= 364
Leg-calve-Perthes= 38
Patella= 291 (one is mine)
Thyroid= 18
TESTS EVER SUBMITTED! |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/26/2008 8:40:50 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Maltese
Cardiac=2
Elbow=0
Hips=6
Leg-calve-Perthes=0
Patella=86
Thyroid=3
TESTS EVER SUBMITTED TO OFA BY ANY BREEDER SHOW OR NOT!
Havanese
BAER hearing= 2578
Cardiac=811
Elbow=671
Hips=1522
Leg-calve-Perthes=435
Patella=1884
Thyroid=194
Congratulations, more than most breeds, yet still a drop in the bucket compared to the number raised in the last 10-30 years.
Yorkies THE #2 breed registered by AKC Today!
Cardiac=17 (one is mine)
Elbow=1
Hips= 54 (one is mine)
Leg-calve-Perthes=22
Patella=113 (one is mine)
Thyroid=16
NO ONE IN YORKIES IS TESTING, except me Ironically. There are only 4 other yorkies that have ever been tested for all 3 tests of cardiac, patella and hips.
SO I COULDN'T breed my health tested bitch to a health tested male if I TRIED, because the only male that has ever had the tests my girl has had (there was only one ever-the other 2 not belonging to me were girls) lives God knows where and is over 10 years old now.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT??????? |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/26/2008 8:44:31 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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So, bottom line, in the small breeds, no one is health testing, so please don't single out the people mixing like it is a sin.
Most of the small breeds have been bred for size and looks in the show ring. AT BEST!!!!!
Show breeders, ANY BREEDERS are just not getting the testing done for these breeds. |
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