| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/23/2008 1:38:55 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote naturaldane: OMG! Can we please get off the puggle trip already, its becoming extreamly boring and very repetitive.
BB breeds puggles wow, like anything here is going to change that, at least if shes going to do... |
It is unfortunate that people get so stuck on that, it is all they see. I have a lot of good Dog knowledge that gets lost in the bickering over ideals. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/23/2008 1:51:22 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote PerfectPom: Quote: All of the other ones were sold as pets on limited registration.
That's funny because on another thread I stated that my Poms breeder offers full or limited registration on almost all her dogs... |
Just because I 'offer' the option, DOES NOT mean that I am not truthful in my assessment of Puppies.
If someone TRULY wanted to have purchased that flashy fawn puppy with Full registration, if they 'HAD' to have her, I would have sold her to an acceptable family. As I have also said, I AM choosy on who gets my girls with full Reg.
BUT.... I was honest with EVERY family that said they wanted a show prospect-- that I did not feel she was show quality.
Could she have made a decent addition to a breeding program if bred with the right Champion stud? Probably, but that is neither hear nor there because that is NOT what I sold her as.
While I may 'offer' full or limited on my Puppies except those with serious faults (go as pet only, no other option)
-- I have also said SEVERAL times that 80-90% of the Puppies I sell DO go to pet only families with limited registration and spay neuter contracts.
The difference in price between limited and full is big enough, that you have to be a serious show person or breeder to opt for full registration on one of my Puppies. Which is intentional.
I am VERY successful as a breeder for a reason. Believe it or not, I do know what I am doing.
I am going to steer people to the best puppy that fits their needs-- and unlike a lot of breeders, if I don't have something and I know of someone else (that I trust) that does, I GLADLY refer people on to other breeders with more suitable Puppies.
I don't worry about mine being sold, mine go quick enough, and I don't keep much of a waiting list.
I hope that clears things up with you 'Pom'. text |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 3/23/2008 2:01:56 AM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 818
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| Quote beaglebrat: It is unfortunate that people get so stuck on that, it is all they see. I have a lot of good Dog knowledge that gets lost in the bickering over ideals. |
See that's the thing you can't always know what others are thinking only from what they post here. I never said you don't have good Dog knowledge. |
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| moggie |
| Posted 3/23/2008 11:28:37 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 345
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 naturaldane,
could you please clear something up here?? in a previous post you stated that showing was to prove of sound body and mind?? i have to disagree...did you mean conformation and behavior?? because if not...i cannot see how someones running of hands for a mere few seconds will prove sound body and i have no clue how a judge could get into a dogs head in a matter of a second to prove sound mind...i would think that only other types of competitions would point to sound mind...however, i would like to say that some people out there are cloning dogs trying to come up with the perfect Dog to earn points in the show ring...sometimes this includes tatooing, silicone testicals, bleaching, etc...in my opinion showing is ablut beauty or what beauty is perceived to be?? please let us know your opinion of these dishonest show breeders who are constantantly cheating and creating genetic nightmares..all for the sake of beauty?? i would like to hear your opinion and also i would like to know if you are aware that everything is not exactly the way it looks?? please do not take this personally..it is merely a statement that i am making due to the dishonesty i know of and some of the nightmares i have seen suffer from genetic issues in the quest of creating that perfect SHOW dog...the throw aways seem to be a high price to pay for that 1 perfect dog.... |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/23/2008 12:53:41 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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There are two main types of show people, those that do it for the love of the breed and wish to maintain the standard and those that only care about winning. Just as the same it is in every sport..
As far as the soundness of mind, its not something that is extensive but if you go to a local show and not one on TV preferably a minor, you will see dogs from both types of breeders, some dogs shy away from the judge, refuse the judge to look at the teeth, act ugly to other dogs, and just in general by looking at the Dog you can tell the energy its omitting and its personality most of the time. Agressive dogs are not tolerated and is one of the main things that will catch a judges eye, its one of the largest things that will determine that the Dog is sound minded along with fear full.
I posted an artical a while back about what some breeders are doing for the sake of winning, though I can not do anything to change those type of people, I can do things as correctly as possible to be a part of the other half.
But on this token, with people you have to remember you will always hear the bad more than the good. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/23/2008 1:42:05 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Bottom line, as I have said, you just have to take it for what it is. Showing can be a useful tool in a purebred breeding program. It should be a part of the 3 major points of looks, temperament and health.
All you need to do is look at the vast majority of purebreds on this site, whose Puppies and adults only 'loosely resemble' the breeds they are supposed to look like.
It goes back to the AKC vs. CKC thread. There are good and bad in everything. It is definitely a 'buyer beware' world out there. People looking for Puppies do need to do their research--which most just do not take the time to do--, at the same time not everyone 'needs' a show puppy.
Some may not need a show puppy, a great, smart, healthy Dog of pet breeding may suit a family better than a puppy of show lines.
NaturalDane and I have BOTH said some of the best 'family dogs' we have owned did NOT come from strong show lines.
If you do want a 'wow' looking puppy, even for pet though, you are not going to find it in a puppy that has ZERO Champions in the first 5 generations. That isn't going to happen either.
And Champions do not necessarily guarantee health and temperament, but show breeders normally at least do 'some' testing of the things they find important to their breeds. Where almost NO non-show breeders get testing done, in MOST breeds (not all, most), all you have to do is look at the OFA website to figure that out.
At the same time, in many of the smaller breeds even show people don't get health testing done. So... there you go. |
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| Havluv524 |
| Posted 3/23/2008 10:25:50 PM |
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Active: 07-14-2006
Posts: 25
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I show and breed havanese, and I have to say that whoever is on here saying that my show dogs lead such a "torturous" life is full of beans. My dogs are my kids, they are my family and sleep in my bed, have the run of the house, and every decision I make in my life, from what job I have to where I live, revolves around my dogs and their well-being. Going to a show and prancing around a ring for a few minutes on the weekends in NO WAY affects them or their ability to be well-loved pets. My stud Dog qualified and was shown at Eukanuba last year...completely OWNER HANDLED. Why? Because he loves the show atmosphere, he loves the attention, and most of all he LOVES to spend that time in the ring with his owner. You think because he probably gets more baths in a year than some dogs get in a lifetime, that means he lives some sort of horrible life in a crate? GET REAL.
By the way, BB...you are absolutely right. Conformation titles are only one aspect of a breeding program. You still do need to take health and temperament into account. There are good breeders and bad breeders in every breed, and just because someone shows their dogs does not make them "reputable" by any stretch of the imagination. For some people, it is more about wins and their own ego than it is about the betterment of the breed. However, I would like to think, from my own experience, that those people are for the most part in the minority. Showing is expensive, time consuming...and quite frankly, if I didn't enjoy myself or the dogs didn't enjoy themselves, there are PLENTY of other things I could be doing with my time and money on the weekends. I choose to have fun in the show ring with my dogs. So to make a blanket statement like the OP poster did about something which he obviously has little to no experience in (I'm sorry, but just because you attended one Dog show does NOT make you an expert in show dogs, showing, or the life that these dogs lead), is just ridiculous.
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/23/2008 10:42:23 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3012
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| Quote Havluv524: I show and breed havanese, and I have to say that whoever is on here saying that my show dogs lead such a "torturous" life is full of beans. My dogs are my kids, they are my family and sleep in my bed,... |
Very well spoken |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/24/2008 9:51:03 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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| Quote Havluv524: I show and breed havanese, and I have to say that whoever is on here saying that my show dogs lead such a "torturous" life is full of beans. My dogs are my kids, they are my family and sleep in my bed,... |
It is great that you can do that with your dogs. Isn't it odd though how much the 'show experience' can vary? I never claim to know it all about showing, because every breed is so different and it has a lot to do with the people involved--which definitely is different from not only breed to breed, but show region to show region.
Are Havanese traditionally a 'handler only breed'? |
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| naturaldane |
| Posted 3/24/2008 10:21:33 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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| Quote beaglebrat: It is great that you can do that with your dogs. Isn't it odd though how much the 'show experience' can vary? I never claim to know it all about showing, because every breed is so different and it has... |
BB, what I dont understand is what is the difference between a pro handler and what they can do, and some one who isnt? I mean I really would think as many shows as you have handled in you can move a dog, and know how to stack and bait to the point you could handle your own Dog if you had time. It may because Im a novice, it may be because I have a passion for it and Ive put my mind to it so I will succeed in it. Some of the so called pro handlers I seen I was not impressed with, and even though I was a nervous bumbling fool I still feel as though I did things more correctly, at least I stacked the Dog show side first..
Maybe by the end of the season I will understand better, but my gut was telling me that your breeder was full of bs, if the Dog loves you then you will bring out the best in the dog, and from what I gathered the breeder had dogs competing with yours? Now does that leave room for politics or what. |
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| Mdoggy |
| Posted 3/24/2008 11:39:40 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 14
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I have a few different points.
1. Why make mutts (designer dogs)when there are sooooo many at the humane society. What is a puggle any way?
2. My friend just finished a Maltese and the handler and her "boy" were best buddies and for the short while he was out, was treated like a king.
3. I'm sad to hear of any breeding dogs being kept in crates, that is a sad life, not the show circuit. Any Dog that lives in an "out building" and produces Puppies cycle after cycle is a victim of a puppymill.
Just my opinion. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 3/24/2008 12:23:14 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 818
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Quote Mdoggy: I have a few different points.
1. Why make mutts (designer dogs)when there are sooooo many at the humane society. What is a puggle any way?
2. My friend just finished a Maltese and the handler and... |
A Puggle is a Beagle/Pug mix. I just don't believe anyone with the correct motives and ethics would produce designer dogs. Here are some sites about the topic referenced on another board.
http://puppymillrescue.com/Desig...puppymills.htm
http://network.bestfriends.org/great...ews/13414.html
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/24/2008 10:01:29 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote Mdoggy: I have a few different points.
1. Why make mutts (designer dogs)when there are sooooo many at the humane society. What is a puggle any way?
2. My friend just finished a Maltese and the handler and... |
What is the difference if someone is raising PET quality Puppies that are purebred? Mixing two breeds to make a better pet is the same thing.
Either you agree with breeding 'pets' because you think that ordinary families deserve to be able to purchase a puppy, or you don't. You think they should ONLY be bred for show.
I raise Puggles because I believe they make better pets than either a Pug or a Beagle. I raise them because people want them and they ARE going to buy them from somewhere if not me.
People who want to rescue, as you have pointed out, have options that they can find on Petfinder, but not everyone chooses that route for many reasons.
I take care of my Puppies and I AM responsible for them for life.
As I pointed out and hashed and rehashed earlier, your view point is a matter of opinion, as is mine. I may not agree with every choice you make in life or every decision that you may make.
Bottom line, I am not responsible for every Dog in the shelter--and furthermore, maybe if rescues were more lenient in their 'adoption policies' maybe more people would choose to rescue.
To be frank-- if it was not my puppy, it's not something I PERSONALLY should be held responsible for.
At the same time, if someone drove in my driveway and said 'here is an adult Puggle, if you don't take it it will get put to sleep', I don't care who it came from, I would take it, and I would probably find it a home with in a week.
As ND said, aren't you guys sick of talking about Puggles?
I kind of am-- but if you insist I will argue all day every day, and at the end of the day I don't think either of us will be changing too many minds from their original opinions.
People love Puggles, there are whole websites with owners and forums that think they are great. Are ALL Puggles good dogs? Are ALL Puggles healthy? Nope, but you can't say ALL of any breed or mix is 'good' or healthy. |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/24/2008 10:39:20 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 399
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"I raise them because people want them and they ARE going to buy them from somewhere if not me."
Following that logic, would you provide stud service to any bitch that came along? Because people want it and they ARE going to get it somewhere if not from you?
Why screen homes then? Because people want them and they ARE going to get them somewhere if not from you?
That fact that there is a market for something doesn't make it right for you to serve that market. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/24/2008 11:13:12 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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Quote MaryAndDobes: "I raise them because people want them and they ARE going to buy them from somewhere if not me."
Following that logic, would you provide stud service to any bitch that came along? Because people want... |
I know of some people with Champion studs that are pretty lienient on what bitches they will breed, because they DO feel exactly as you mentioned.
And they ARE correct. If they don't allow someone to breed to their stud they will find a lessor quality stud to breed with--So, there you go.
May I remind everyone what site we are on. This is not petfinder this is not PETA, this is one of the largest puppy selling sites on the internet.
If you look up at the rules, there is a rule that says 'do NOT bash breeders just b/c you do not agree with breeding.
Well.... I imagine that goes for people who breed mixes. There a lot more breeders on here breeding a lot more mixes than just Puggles.
The people who absolutely don't agree with it may want to check out a different site. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 3/24/2008 11:41:43 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 818
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Quote beaglebrat: I know of some people with Champion studs that are pretty lienient on what bitches they will breed, because they DO feel exactly as you mentioned.
And they ARE correct. If they don't allow someone to... |
For debate sake Mary made some excellent points. What site are we on? That is a good question. Even though this is a big internet selling site they do warn of the dangers of unethical breeders, so I guess consider it is a buyer beware market. They also do take complaints on problem breeders from what I understand, I could be wrong. I think you are the one who brought it to thier attention about bashing because before that they didn't seem too worried. In my opinion we are debating here and People are at free will to form their own opinions. I believe Mao has said a few times we are allowed by them to have this place to discuss things, or something to that effect. I doubt they will ever be censoring as much as you wish they would. It is what it is. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/24/2008 11:47:27 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 781
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But doesn't this continually revert to people just not agreeing with ANY ONE breeding mixes?
Not just me personally-- though it does seem to be a trend any time I comment and truly it is getting old.
And weather or not the mods agree, it is bashing just because you don't agree with breeding.
I come on here because I am a paying advertiser and I bump up my adds. I think for the most part the other 'commenters' are coming on to a site for free, that breeders are paying to keep going.
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 3/24/2008 11:58:11 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 818
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Quote beaglebrat: But doesn't this continually revert to people just not agreeing with ANY ONE breeding mixes?
Not just me personally-- though it does seem to be a trend any time I comment and truly it is getting old.
And... |
So what if it does revert to that IMO, things are rehashed here just about every day of the week. Maybe that's why I do come here, as they allow some feedom of speech. They offered this site free to the public from the get go and it has never just promoted one view. I agree it was way out of hand before with the personal attacks and I'm surprised you didn't say more than you did then because you obviously are intelligent. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 3/25/2008 8:01:17 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6601
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Quote beaglebrat: I know of some people with Champion studs that are pretty lienient on what bitches they will breed, because they DO feel exactly as you mentioned.
And they ARE correct. If they don't allow someone to... |
B.B.
I have read and reread this post several times. So far I have not been able to pin point where someone is bashing you. People are asking you some tough questions and a couple of people may have misunderstood you, but you were able to respond to each of them and explain your position at length each time. Show me examples of what you feel are bashing? |
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| Mdoggy |
| Posted 3/25/2008 8:22:46 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 14
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When you mix breeds you are now getting all the "faults" of both breeds. Hips, liver, hearts etc. You are breeding IN all these problems which will have to be delt with by a new owner. Each breed carries their own genetic faults and by combining these you are creating a potential disastor. Each breed is sweet, cute, cuddly in its own way, so that is not unique to puggles. Please don't justify your reason for breeding mutts. I'm just telling it like it is, not trying to bash you. I wish you would just breed "pure" and be responsible in that breeding.
Please go to the humane society and see all of the "designer" dogs up for adoption because their owners can't afford the Vet bills for the new aquired problems. |
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