| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/19/2008 12:31:13 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3049
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Im not sure this is allowed, however I think it would make for an interesting topic. The pole is on Parade website, and its a pole on if we think its a good idea to make pet owners speuter their pets, yet allow pro breeders to keep breeding.
http://www.parade.com/opencms/opencms/articles/edi... |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 3/20/2008 1:30:29 AM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 890
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It would be fine with me if they required mandatory speutering of pet quality dogs, as long as you wouldn't be forced into giving pediatric spay/nueter which I am not in agreement with. Since this would be harder to enforce as purchasers would have to agree to do it later, I guess I'm against it. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 3/20/2008 7:16:56 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6665
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I am not infavor of this.
If they could enforce it, the prices of dogs would skyrocket and the average person could not afford to buy one. The gov. would have to deside on who is qualified to breed and raise. We all know how messed up government is, need I remind you that many big puppy mills are USDA approved. So the quality of dogs produced will go down and the price will go up. Giving birth to a puppy blackmarket. But of course they will not be able to enforce it because they won't fund it. Since they will not fund it and put enough boots on the ground to enforce it, they will force vets into maditory reporting which will lead to people not taking their dogs in for needed vet care. No I'm not infavor of this action. |
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| kathystone |
| Posted 3/20/2008 7:47:24 AM |
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Active: 11-18-2007
Posts: 115
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Perhaps a better idea is let the people decide if they want to spay/neuter BUT, should they choose to keep their pet intact, the Dog license fee is substancially ore. For example, an altered pet license would be $10.00 and an unaltered pet license would be $100.00. Here's the logic: If the Dog is spayed or neutered it is not adding to the pet overpopulation problem in America. Their offspring is not filling the shelters and overburdening the animal control system. The unaltered pets have the potential to add to the problem. Therefore, they are the ones who cost more to license.
The other thing is to require more space for the puppymill dogs, AND require a solid surface in at least half of the the cage. Puppymill dogs that have been on wire all their life have scarred and deformed feet. Plus there is no place for them to lay down comfortably. Try sleeping on a 1" wire grate. Not at all nice! The puppymills usually have kennel buildings with inside outside runs. The USDA loves it as this is their solution to the noise from the humaniacs. The dogs now have a 4'x 30" outside area and a 30" square inside area. There are usually 2-3 dogs in a cage so the "cage requirements" are still met, plus the cages stay "clean and sanitary" as the feces and urine fall through...as do the feet of the smaller dogs on occassion.The kennel owner is suppose to clean and sanitize once a week so that is what they do! They wash down once a week minimum and that keeps them up to the USDA requirements. The buildings are currently going for $25-30,000 and there is a 4 month waiting list at the 3 manufacters in Missouri. So you can see there is a market.
The ideal thing would be to educate the public but, I think that is almost impossible. They won't adopt a 3 year old baby becasue they think it is "too old" and so the kid rots in foster care. They want a little baby and they are willing to go out of the US to get it even though there are thousands of kids looking for a home here. Sad! |
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| moggie |
| Posted 3/20/2008 7:54:00 AM |
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Active: 09-01-2005
Posts: 410
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 who will this governing body be that will decide what a pro breeder is...what exactly is a pro breeder?? is it a breeder who breeds with great integrity?? is it a breeder who has extensive experience?? is it about the breed quality?? 1st we have to have a definition of PRO BREEDER??? and maoseger..i believe you are talking about USDA (united states department of agriculture)and not FDA (federal drug administration) in case you do not know this...the reason why larger breeders become usda licensed is because they have too..they cannot legally sell to pet stores or across state lines legally without a usda license..there is a free booklet with all the rules and regs...puppy stores are not regulated by usda...as long as they sell Puppies and nothing else..it is the pet stores which sell exotics that have to be usda licensed..and when this happens and they do sell Puppies...then the Puppies become also regulated...paperwork has got to be on file and things are looked at monthly...does this make for a better situation...IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT...breeders who advertise usda licensed...might as well jump up and scream..i have massive amounts of dogs...i sell to brokers and pet stores..this is the ONLY reason they are usda licensed....THESE ARE PRETTY MUCH PUPPY MAKING FACTORIES!! and this is what usda licenses...ill say it again and again...there is not enough hours in a day to care for massive amounts of dogs...i dont give a **** who you are...it cannot be done properly...ever...usda breeders out west have hundreds of thousands of dollars tied up in their massive amounts of dogs and equiptment...go to google and look up a sundowner kennel system...you will find a 50,000 to 100,00 set up which is self contained...3 levels of cages on both sides of a shiny new building..automatic feeders and automatic waterers...and automatic wash down every 15 minutes for the trays under the cages...this is how massive numbers of dogs are kept...in a cage for their entire life...usually 3X3...this is what usda licenses...what happens with these adult dogs when they are no longer able to breed?? do we really want to know?? we do know that usda does not regulate that...some go to the pound, some go to the vet for disposal...some may or may not get homes..most dont...most are in debilitated condition, have rotten teeth, eyes is horrid condition due to urine amonia fumes, on and on....so....what exactly is a professional breeder...usda?? |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/20/2008 9:02:26 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Interesting... especially in light of the recent change in opinion on the right time to neuter. The veterinary community and many behaviorists are now suggesting to wait until a Dog is mature to neuter. (BTW - I am pro-spay/neuter)
I personally believe that the issue is more about responsible pet ownership.
That being said I'm actually a proponent of pediatric spay/neuter for cats. I'm not worried about a cat's growth plates and they don't have the same incidence of osteosarcoma as dogs.
Of course I don't trust most people to actually BE responsible pet owners and I'm thrilled that more responsible rescues are doing pediatric altering on their Puppies.
However, as the responsible owner of a purebred from a very responsible breeder and since my Dog will be competed in performance events, I will wait until he is about 14 months old to neuter him (if I can stand him being intact for that long anyway...) He will NOT be used for breeding. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 3/20/2008 9:08:00 AM |
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Forum Moderator
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6665
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| Quote moggie: who will this governing body be that will decide what a pro breeder is...what exactly is a pro breeder?? is it a breeder who breeds with great integrity?? is it a breeder who has extensive... |
Thank you, you are right I ment to say USDA. I guess I hadn't had enough caffeine yet this morning. Thanks for the heads up and I've made the correction. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/20/2008 10:40:49 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3049
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| Quote moggie: who will this governing body be that will decide what a pro breeder is...what exactly is a pro breeder?? is it a breeder who breeds with great integrity?? is it a breeder who has extensive... |
A professional breeder is one that titles their Dog in one way or another, and has a good reputation among the kennel club they are a member of, I think as an added measure that the kennel club itself votes on that is part of a reputable registry
I dont believe in the good ol days as in the 50s and 60s when millers and bybs where not so popular that if you wanted a pure bred Dog it was unaffordable, I wasnt alive then but I have heard that said from some one that was. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/20/2008 10:42:50 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3049
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on another note, if some one cant be responsible enough to spay their PET then they shouldnt have a dog.
For the record since I can now speak my mind, I wish that the USDA would be forced to shut down such a place, but its would be a major blow for the economy and if they wont do it over cigs then i doubt anything will be done over dogs. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/20/2008 11:04:46 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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I am not for 'mandatory' spay/neuter laws. I have had a lot more of my Puppies go to CA, since all of their laws and regulation changes. If it was mandatory all over the United States, I do think the price would go up and be unaffordable for many average families to have purebreds or intentional mixes.
Really though, I don't know, because at some point, it would just be cheaper to import a puppy from a puppymill in another country like Eastern European Countries and Mexico, which God only knows the conditions those dogs are kept in. We can't control how the world takes care of their animals.
If there is a demand, people will make a supply. About 80-90% of my Boxer litters go on limited registration and spay/neuter agreements-- I wish more people did this, we would have less of a problem. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/20/2008 11:16:44 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3049
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Its 80% people say no, and 20% of people saying yes currently. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/20/2008 11:36:19 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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regarding international dogs... what is interesting is that I believe AKC will grant full registration from any recognized overseas breed organization. But then again with the cost of quarantine, even a less expensive puppy will be hugely expensive by the time you ship it over.
Beagle - glad you do the limited registration thing. Do you insist on co-ownership and terms for all full registration / show hopefuls? |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/20/2008 12:33:06 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
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There is no quarantine on dogs coming into the US or Canada. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/20/2008 1:34:07 PM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Depends on the country of origin along with a whole host of other requirements. It's not so straightforward as just putting a puppy in an airplane. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/20/2008 3:09:08 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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| Quote joeypoodle: regarding international dogs... what is interesting is that I believe AKC will grant full registration from any recognized overseas breed organization. But then again with the cost of quarantine, even... |
I do have 2 boys and about 9 girls under co-ownership with people all over the country, but I do not insist on a show contract and not every single puppy I give on full registration is under co-ownership.
I am very choosy on who particularly gets my females with full registration, but with males I figure people are not going to 'over-breed' them.
My friends with Champion health tested males don't get a ton of 'outside' bitches for breeding, so I don't think the average owner will get too many people to breed their Dog with if they don't show it, and I inform them of that, and kind of leave it at that.
I do have a 4 page puppy contract that goes along with my health guarantee that stipulates a lot of things concerning buy-back and all that jazz. I don't want any of my babies just ending up anywhere or in a bad situation. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/20/2008 3:32:42 PM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Beagle... this is not criticism. Please don't take it as such. It's just conversation.
Do you worry that the folks that you sell your males to on full registration will go out and get a lesser quality female on full registration and damage your line?
Most of the breeders I know will only sell on full registration on a co-ownership basis. Once the Dog is titled, the breeder will often take their name off the papers. They will only sell with full registration if the owner is committed to showing. With Standard Poodles that is a huge committment unless you are going to focus on UKC (which allows a Sporting Cut).
A friend of mine who breeds allowed herself to get talked into a full registration sale without co-ownership. The people swore they would show the dog. Now the Dog is a part of a BYB operation and the breeder has no recourse. The Dog isn't titled nor are the bitches that they are using in their breeding program. What's worse is they tout the breeding on their Dog which damages my friend's reputation. No Dog has been sold without co-ownership from my friend since then. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/20/2008 3:51:23 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Quote joeypoodle: Beagle... this is not criticism. Please don't take it as such. It's just conversation.
Do you worry that the folks that you sell your males to on full registration will go out and get a lesser quality... |
I am not that concerned with showing, and I have been on the receiving end of a bad show contract, and I just won't screw people over like that.
When you are selling an 8-10 week old 'show prospect' puppy that is exactly what it is, a prospect. There are no guarantees that it will be 'show quality'.
I am not going to require that someone spend $10K or more on a handler and showing, if the Dog just may not have the right look or attitude for show.
I really am not that in to 'making a name' or 'preserving my bloodlines'. As long as my Puppies are well cared for, that is my first priority. The life of show dogs that are forced to go with handlers for weeks at a time, is not the best life, in my opinion.
Boxers are a handler breed, and it is VERY expensive to finish one, and I am sure that price will jump up dramatically with the price of gas going up, and the handlers all travel in those HUGE motor home rigs.
My goal is to produce the best looking, healthiest, greatest temperament Puppies. and make sure that they go to great homes. I don't have the desire to control every aspect of someone elses breeding program, and I don't work well with others that do. Thankfully I have been around long enough to know a lot of breeders where I can avoid the people with crazy, controlling contracts.
I have a friend with a rare breed that isn't so lucky. She has to bow down to other breeders controlling all the decent dogs in her breed, as an intelligent adult, that just wouldn't be very satisfying to me. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/20/2008 4:12:37 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 842
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Quote joeypoodle: Beagle... this is not criticism. Please don't take it as such. It's just conversation.
Do you worry that the folks that you sell your males to on full registration will go out and get a lesser quality... |
I will get in to my situation that soured me on co-ownerships and show contracts.
I purchased a 10 week old puppy with every intention of SHOWING HER MYSELF. The breeders left their names on as co-owner. Not telling me this was a handler breed and that I would never be able to finish her and that it would be in the $10k range or maybe more. If the Dog isn't getting points, the sky is the limit on price.
The breeder kept (probably the best) two Puppies from the same litter. When it was time to start showing her, I went to the confirmation classes, trained her and handed her off to THEIR HANDLER who was traveling with 9 other dogs of the same breed.
After MONTHS of footing the bill, my Dog did not have a single point. She would sometimes win her class, but the handler had other dogs that would also win their class, and my Dog was often handed off to strangers.
My Dog HATED the handler, my Dog HATED showing and it was no secret, the handler laughed about it, but since I was paying, I didn't think it was too funny.
Then after 46 entries over a 9 month period my husband lost his job and we just could not continue to fork over the handler/show money.
I was a golden child, when they were calling the shots and I was writing the check, but I became an a-hole when I said we had to take a break.
They wanted to take the Dog back, I told them to take me to court. They never did.
Now, one of the other littermates DID finish. However, my dogs other littermate, did not finish. In fact I paid for, and pulled up her show record and the sister was only ever entered in 12 shows total! All in our state, she was NEVER campaigned like my Dog was.
So, when the Dog became of breeding age, they would not sign off on the papers or allow me to breed the Dog in any way. Even though, I had made an honest effort and they DID NOT with the littermate.
I don't think it is fair, to say the least. So now I have a very well bred Dog sitting here, and her Puppies are not eligible to be registered with AKC, because I KNOW they would never sign off on the litter papers.
Bottom line is that co-ownership stuff is often at the breeders advantage. A way that they can get someone else to foot the HEAVY bill and show more of their Puppies. No one can guarantee that an 8-10 week old puppy will be show quality, so why should the person buying the puppy have all of the risk and expense? It's a scam to me. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/20/2008 4:35:55 PM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Actually I think that is exactly why you need to be careful when deciding what breeder to work with and what specifically the stipulations are. If you had a great relationship with this breeder ahead of time and you knew the risks, you might have thought twice about going with that particular breeder (or that breed).
My bigger question would be why did you pick a breed where you did not understand the ins and outs of showing when you decided that you wanted to breed a titled animal? How would you know what to look for or breed for without first getting indepth experience or finding a mentor? Maybe that's more of a rhetorical question as hind sight is 20/20. I'm not trying to make you feel worse.
I know a lady who is extremely well respected who showed for 20 years before she decided that she knew enough to breed. That's what she will tell you and I respect her immensely. She also breeds incredibly beautiful, successful dogs (Westminster caliber). |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/20/2008 4:51:15 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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| Quote joeypoodle: Actually I think that is exactly why you need to be careful when deciding what breeder to work with and what specifically the stipulations are. If you had a great relationship with this breeder ahead... |
Oh, don't worry, I don't feel bad about what I do, how I started or anything else about my breeding program. I am very content.
I don't think that all dogs being bred need to be show dogs. I wouldn't call myself strictly a 'show breeder'.
I started out with a pet that I bred. No intentions of showing. Showing has never been my top priority or will it ever be. My goal is to produce good dogs for primarily PETS. That is why 80-90% are sold as PETS. I just use the best dogs I have available.
I am very successful at what I do and I often help place quality Puppies FOR show breeders who have been showing Puppies for longer than I have been alive. They see me as a peer and they consult with me on the best ways to advertise. I GIVE THEM REFERRALS.
I HAVE now bred my own Champions, but that by double registering them and showing them UKC, where I AM SHOWING THEM.
AKC is about the money, not necessarily the dogs. I don't like their system, so I am not going to play in it too much. It IS too political.
With a male, yes I think it needs to be AKC titled, but I don't even own a male right now.
When I do, it will be co-owned with another friend to share the expense, or we will just purchase a finished Champion.
I am satisfied with that, families purchasing my Puppies are satisfied, and that is what I am concerned about, not showing and not what other show breeders do or think-- other than my friends. |
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