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Something to Ponder |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/16/2008 9:23:17 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3050
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| Quote lifeofoscar: I have to say that you guys all crack me up! I'm a dog. I'm not pure-bred but my people love me anyway. I did come from a place that bred dogs and it was OK but I like where I live now best. I have neighbors... |
Its great for you to have found a home, but what about the other mixed breed no one wants or pure bred dogs bred so badly that they reflect nothing upon the breeds character, or the people where too lazy to train? You where lucky, thats not so for millions of others. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/16/2008 9:37:47 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3050
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Quote staceystange: Life,
I like your response!
Naturaldane-
I'm not really concerned about if ppl like me, I am just here to learn more and understand this new world. I am not taking things personally, I am just simply... |
I was hoping you just wouldnt think that we where coming off itchy or high almighty.
Nor was I implying that you couldnt afford a show dog, a show Dog is not for every one, but even with the best parents the breed has to offer, out of a litter there is only going to be one, maybe two and a rarity of three Puppies going to be show quality, the rest where those wanting a good puppy. Testing doesnt guarantee anything but it can rule out allot of potential problems, those in turn are expensive, the good breeders have a higher standard of care and the dogs themselves are not cheap to champion. Granted the cost is a little more but you have better odds and a guarantee.
I dont even think i would have a problem with non show breeders if in fact there wasnt so many that put so many dogs with defects out in the world and destroy breeds integrity, I do wish better bred dogs where more affordable than they where, because lets face it, if you can buy a Caddie for kia price your going to.
I have two mutts for the record, they are great dogs, however they should have never been, one was dumped at a gas station at 4 weeks old, the other was an oops litter between a rat terrier and a min pin, shes a great little pain in the butt, and we dont love them any less than the "high" quality dogs we have.
Its deffinatly a messed up thing. Im glad you have your puppy, and I hope everything goes well as he grows, and Im
very sorry that you didnt get to save that Puppies life, but everything happens for a reason.
You know about hod and pano right? If not visit my old site, www.cannonkennels.com and i believe its under dane needs, I dont use the site anymore but its not ran out of its prepaid thing to be deleted either. |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/16/2008 11:00:30 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 420
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"I am just not sure when the only people who should have dogs are those that are rich enough to afford $thousand $ Puppies."
This is such a big subject.
First of all, a lot of times you pay now or you pay later. The responsible breeders are health testing the parents of the Puppies to try to ensure the best possible health in the Puppies. They are also doing a ton of research into the pedigrees to uncover possible problems and to try to breed away from them. Granted, it's no guarantee that every puppy they produce will be healthy and long lived but they tried, and in trying, they increase the odds.
Backyard breeders don't do this. They cut every corner. When their dogs live long, healthy lives, it's more of a fluke not a concerted effort.
How does this affect you? Well, it could mean that your puppy won't be healthy in the long run. For instance, boxers have severe cardiac issues for one thing. I'm assuming you received no health testing records on the parents of your puppy for cardiac exams? It's possible they were unhealthy dogs when they were bred, and they passed on genetic problems that could possibly have been avoided. If your puppy was unlucky enough to have inherited problems like this, you'll pay later. Again, I'm not saying this can't happen with a well-bred puppy because it can. But that brings us to something else that responsible breeders offer, and that's a guarantee.
Now, they can't guarantee that things won't happen. But if something does despite their best efforts to try to ensure it doesn't, you'd at least be able to get a replacement puppy from them. You'd have them interested in your problem, you'd have their support and you'd have access to their breed-specific knowledge which even vets are often not as well versed on. A knowledgeable breeder can save you a lot of dollars in experience as they often know things that vets don't and can offer advice that vets can't. |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/16/2008 11:16:45 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 420
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My post was getting a little long so I started a new one.
A lot of people think that conformation doesn't matter when all they want is a pet, but again, they don't realize the impact that conformation has on health. If a Dog isn't built properly, it often can't function properly and is prone to certain injuries. For instance, they say that dogs with insufficient turn of stifle are prone to anterior cruciate ligament tears. If the pasterns aren't angled right, the Dog doesn't absorb shock properly, etc. Things like this can affect pets who are just trying to run around and have a good time with their families. The responsible breeders are showing their dogs and trying to prove the merits of their dogs before breeding.
If breeders aren't paying attention to things like good hips, who is this going to affect? People like you or pets like yours. If you visit the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation For Animals) website, you can read the stats there of how hip health has been improved over the years through diligent testing and specifically breeding for hip health.
Taking that further, responsible breeders test for other health issues and try to make better breeding decisions, and also temperament test as well.
Things like showing and health testing and temperament testing cost money. And it makes sense that those costs get forwarded to the puppy owners.
It's like anything else - you usually get what you pay for. If you want to pay less, you often sacrifice the health of your dog, you sacrifice having a knowledgeable, experienced breeder who could be a world of help to you and your dog, you take chances with health and temperament and when you have a family of kids at home, is that smart?
When people claim that they can't advocate spending that kind of money on a dog, I often wonder how they can't not justify it when it's such an important purchase that will hopefully be with your family for years to come. |
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| staceystange |
| Posted 3/17/2008 9:41:13 AM |
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Active: 03-13-2008
Posts: 33
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Mary,
I thank you for your info, like I have stated in some of my posts, i am new to Puppies. and when i bought m Puppies i had no clue as to what breeding was about, I have a few friends that have breed there dogs do other friends could have the same breed. I still am not sure what all the stats mean Ie. conformation and etc. I am learning. My parents always had rescued? dogs i believe. I know that they always had mixed breeds and not one of them ever had any health issues. I am not disagreeing with anyone on this, i am just trying to understand this world. |
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| MaryAndDobes |
| Posted 3/17/2008 12:25:39 PM |
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Active: 06-01-2005
Posts: 420
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When people say they've had mixed breeds or know people who had mixed breeds and they "never had any health issues", my question is what health issues did they check for?
There is very little done in terms of actual health testing when it comes to mixed breeds. Their owners are not the ones x-raying for hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia or going to CERF eye exams or running 24 hour Holter monitor ecgs or having routine cardiac ultrasounds, etc. It's easy to say there are "no health issues" when one doesn't look for any. The owners and breeders of purebred dogs tend to be the ones that test and actually look for problems. By simply testing and looking for problems, the incidences of problems is going to seem to be larger just due to the larger sample size looking.
You've got to understand that a lot of health issues are not necessarily symptomatic or visible to the naked eye. I've uncovered elbow dysplasis in one of my dogs through my routine testing, and I never could see it throughout her entire life by looking at her. But genetically, she could have passed it on. Maybe it would have been worse in the next generation had I not been responsible about looking.
Problems with mixed breed dogs are generally not known unless it's something with visible symptoms that causes their people to see a vet. But like I said, a lot of things are not seen even if they do have them.
For what it's worth, the little mixed breed Dog I used to have had kidney disease. They aren't immune to problems as some like to believe. |
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| emlee3 |
| Posted 3/18/2008 1:25:47 PM |
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Active: 02-11-2006
Posts: 2084
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| Quote staceystange: Once again I am just so confused, I guess I will never understand this whole world of dogs and breeding! I am just not sure when the only people who should have dogs are those that are rich enough to afford... |
i'm glad that you had a positive experience with your dog. I, like you, bought my Dog from a byb and didn't know anything about breeding. Unlike you, i got a Dog that had severe case of coccidia and food aggression.
I spent A LOT of my time and money at the vet office. Even now she hasn't fully recovered it..her health has never been 100% excellent.
I have worked with her on her food aggression since she was a puppy. I will NEVER fully trust her when she's around food. I do feed her in her crate and she is not allowed to eat any of her chew treats by herself. I watch her like a hawk.
Some show dogs aren't expensive as you think. I knew a show breeder that was looking for a home for one of her show dogs. He was about 1.5 yr old and cost about $200 to adopt. yes, he wasn't a puppy, but he came fully trained and neutered. IF i didn't have my Dog i would gladly have adopted him.
Most people think that show dogs cost lots of $$ but sometimes thats not true. Try talking to a show breeder and you'll be surprised. Not all the Puppies will be qualified to be a show dog. Most are sold as pets. |
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| staceystange |
| Posted 3/18/2008 10:56:46 PM |
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Active: 03-13-2008
Posts: 33
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| Quote emlee3: i'm glad that you had a positive experience with your dog. I, like you, bought my Dog from a byb and didn't know anything about breeding. Unlike you, i got a Dog that had severe case of coccidia and food... |
Thanks for the info, yes i find myself lucky. I spoke to the breeder today and found out some more info about the Dog and her parents, she said that the dof hasn't had his shots (any) yet. I have a vet appt for Monday coming. He was born on 12,21,07, so he came home with me at just 8 weeks. I know he should have seen the vet sooner but thats as soon as I can get in the vets! He is doing reall great, happy, healty, housebreaking very good for what you can expect for a 10plus week old. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/19/2008 6:51:58 AM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3050
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| Quote staceystange: Thanks for the info, yes i find myself lucky. I spoke to the breeder today and found out some more info about the Dog and her parents, she said that the dof hasn't had his shots (any) yet. I have a vet... |
Stacy, If you would like some facts on vaccinations that are a bit outside the box, please email me at kabukienot@yahoo.com as I cant post the links here since some are on breeders or vets web pages. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/21/2008 9:26:02 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Maryanddobes posted some really great information.
one thing to add... dogs from reputable breeders are not clogging the shelter system. They want their dogs back and it would kill them to think of teir Dog being dumped somewhere.
Also, even with a top breeder, you will only maybe get one or two real show prospects. But the differences in the Puppies will be only slight. What differentiates a show quality froma pet quality puppy from a good breeder could just be tail set being not quite perfect or just even a glint in the eye.
There is also something to be said for knowing the genetic health of a puppy back for many generations. You can even research their pedigrees and find out how long the dogs lived. Good structure is extremely important in health of an animal. Poor breeders market selling teacup dogs or "roya" meaning overly big dogs. What they don't tell you is that there is an optimum size for each breed. That is thesize in which the dog's structure will be the soundest it can be. overly large and overly small dogs for their breed have health problems, period.
The other thing that people don't understand is that there is no such thing as "hybrid vigor". Take a goldendoodle for instance.... You've crossed two breeds with two separate sets of severe health issues. The F1 breeding can produce healthy individuals but that's where the benefit stops. Once you start breeding doodle to doodle you actually have increased health issues because you have now broadened the scope of serious genetically derived problems. If anyone is reading about this, there is a great article on it on the national Golden Retriever club's website.
I personally believe that there are only two acceptable ways of getting a Dog because of the crisis of overpopulation that we are in... either get a Dog from a very good breeder (using the definition in the strictest sense) or from a shelter.
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/21/2008 9:50:12 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 859
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People who are discounting mixing are also assuming that purebred breeders health test--when in many many breeds if you look at the OFA website, they don't.
There has NEVER EVER been a Purebred Pug to have an excellent OFA score and out of the 30 plus years of OFA recording only 364 Pugs have EVER been hip tested at all, and only 36.3% were NORMAL the rest had some degree of bad hips.
That is just one of a TON of problems that the Pug AND English Bulldog breeds have because they have ALWAYS been bred for looks and not health.
So, after 5 years of very unsuccessfully breeding purebred Pugs, I caved and at the request of several families, I bred my first litter of Puggles.
I have NEVER regretted that decision. Other than the grief I get from some purebred breeders and rescue people who I feel are close minded and just never ever believe in mixed breeding. At that point, it's a basic difference in opinion.
They are much healthier and STRONGER (Kind of sounds vigorous huh?)Puppies from the time they come out of the sack. I have actually NEVER lost a Puggle puppy if it is born alive, and that included from a HUGE litter of 13, all lived and I was amazed.
I am not defending all mixes or all breeding programs. I am just pointing out in some breeds, NO ONE does health testing, responsible or not. I am just saying that with the Puggles I think I am improving the breed and making healthier Puppies than purebred Pugs. dogs should not be bred to look like space aliens over the generations-- it is apparently not a good idea.
I am also giving people who want Puggles an option of having home raised, socialized Puppies. instead of being forced to purchase from a MO, or PN Puppymill. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/21/2008 10:01:48 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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No offense but that is a cop-out. Puggles are mutts and people are making money breeding the same kind of Dog that has been showing up in shelters as oops litters for years. The only difference is that now someone decided to call it a puggle.
Pugs do have problems. So don't get a pug. That's the best answer. Beagles don't have a lot problems so you have introduced bad Pug genes into the Beagle gene pool and added to the overpopulation problem at the same time.
people can get nice socialized dogs by getting a well bred animal or by going to their local shelter and picking something that needs a home.
I stand firmly against the purposeful breeding of "designer" mutts. The only reason why you refer to them as "puggles" is because you can make money doing it. There is no such thing as a puggle, goldendoodle, shih-poo and whatever. They are made up words that sound cute so that people will pay money for a puppy resulting from two dogs who should have never been bred together.
Only BYB's and mills breed mixes on purpose. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/21/2008 10:18:23 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 859
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| Quote joeypoodle: No offense but that is a cop-out. Puggles are mutts and people are making money breeding the same kind of Dog that has been showing up in shelters as oops litters for years. The only difference is that... |
Again, that is your opinion. Most everyone breeding purebreds also make money. Some may claim they don't but they do.
As soon as people don't want them, I will quit breeding them, but PUGGLES are great little dogs, so I don't think that will be any time soon. I offer an option to puppymill Puppies raised in cages in a huge kennel or barn.
All of my Puggle Puppies are sold on spay/neuter agreements, and micro-chipped. I give a health guarantee and a lifetime return policy.
None of my Puppies will end up in shelters or rescues, so I don't know why rescue people would be upset about it-- but I know they are. I don't take offense, I just take it as a difference in opinion.
Families that are NOT SHOWING or breeding, should be allowed to choose what type of pet they want to buy. Puggles are more popular than many purebred breeds for a reason. They are good little dogs.
I have many many great references and am always getting e-mails from families who LOVE their PUGGLE that they purchased from me, and some even come back for another puppy.
You can't hate people who try to do a good job raising Puggles, when there are families that WANT to buy them. Are the families that purchase them evil too? |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/21/2008 11:09:22 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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no they are not evil. Just uneducated. As soon as one puggle is bred to the other you now have a change in the gene pool and the resulting dogs will have BOTH the problems that pugs can have and the problems that beagles can have.
The other thing is that not every puggle will be the same. It's not a breed. it takes 50 generations of breeding to create a breed.
Good breeders don't make any money.
Let's run your numbers... $10K to finish a dog.. Okay.. let's say you have one stud and two bitches. That's $30K in showing and handling. Then you need to have yearly exams done on them to recertify CERF and you need to have all xrays done. Add about $1500 a year to each breeding dog. of course you have basic vet care so add another $1000 to each Dog per year plus cost of living. Of course a good breeder won't breed their bitches on each cycle (and they will be over 2 years old so you have the cost from raising them from a puppy). Good breeders also won't have more than one litter at a time otherwise they can't socialize them properly. So we are saying maybe 2 litters a year, so probably about 18 Puppies. Of course you will want to keep back one or two of these Puppies for yourself to grow to see if they are the next show prospects so that's more like 15 Puppies. You provide basic care for the mother and then shots, exams and microchipping for the Puppies. Figure another $1,000 for each mother ($500 if you're lucky but it may not be an easy birth) and then about $150 to $200 on each puppy after birth. So you are looking at about $10,000 in expenses (easily this might be light) to breed 2 bitches. Add that to the $30,000 in fees to get the Dog titles. You might be able to get $2,000 per puppy so we are talking $30,000 in income but you are already $10,000 in the hole. Then there are more showing fees for the 2 or 3 Puppies you held back. Or you could have smaller litters or you culd have major medical issues to deal with. f course just because your dogs are titled doesn't mean you stop showing. After the conformation titles, many breeders look toward performance titles. Now you are adding in training and new show expenses. No a good breeder loses money and a lot of it.
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/21/2008 11:10:11 AM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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Continued...
If a breeder is breeding for the money then they really need to take a step back and think about right and wrong. One tour through a kill shelter might be all it takes.... Sure those people might want those cute little puggles but wouldn't it be better if we shut down the mills and those people went and adopted from the shelter instead? otherwise it's like a cigarette company saying that if they don't make cigarettes people will just smoke pot. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/21/2008 11:35:31 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 859
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The fact is that even most show breeders NEED to make money unless they are independently wealthy. If they continually LOST money on litters, they couldn't continue for very long. Take a Champion Stud for example, you finish it with $10,000 another $1,000-2,000 in health testing and then you can make thousands and thousands of dollars every year for the next 7 years or more breeding outside bitches and getting a higher price for your own Puppies.
Your figures are WAY high on the cost of testing and the amount of money used to raise a litter of healthy Puppies.- and I don't know of a single breeder (Unless they only have 2-3 dogs) that has titled EVERY single bitch in their breeding program. Show quality and breeding quality are NOT the same. A bitch with a great pedigree slight flaws CAN still produce show quality Puppies.
The people who have met Puggles owned by friends, relatives, and neighbors, don't want to adopt a dog. They want to buy a Puggle puppy of their own. I know it is hard for rescue people to understand, but it doesn't matter to some families, they WANT a puppy, not someone else's problem dog.
Not that it's right, but if families come to me for a puppy, they are NOT thinking of adopting anything.
Also, first generation Puggles LOOK LIKE PUGGLES. There is no mistaking them and they are VERY consistent looking. I could show you the litters that I have had and they all look like Puggles. I have never bred Puggle to Puggle, so I don't know what they would look like, but it's also not a huge concern, as I said these are pets ONLY, sold as pets on spay/neuter agreements.
Life isn't perfect and everyone has ideals, unfortunately the ideals are often NOT reality. If I thought I was doing something 'bad' or 'wrong', I wouldn't do it, but I don't and I have heard all of these arguments before, and MORE, trust me. I just don't agree. |
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| joeypoodle |
| Posted 3/21/2008 12:06:36 PM |
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Active: 03-19-2008
Posts: 41
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I wouldn't be able to live with myself. But then again I don't understand how people can get duped into paying money for a mutt either. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 3/21/2008 12:21:16 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 859
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I get to stay home with my kids and my dogs and make a lot of families happy in the process. I am doing exactly what I want in life and can't think of a thing I would rather be doing.
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 3/21/2008 1:10:12 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3050
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The one thing that has always kinda bugged me, its not the fact that mutts shouldnt be rescued or dont deserve homes, but when did taking responsiblity for some one elses screw up become the only right thing to do if they didnt want a show puppy or one out of the litter?
This is one of the things that has kept me on the fence between what is "right" and what is "wrong" because the Dane Im showing, thought I love her dearly isnt the smartest tool in the shed. My ch. lined then byb bred for 2 generations is the smartest Dane I have known and if I was to go buy a pet, I would probally want the same type, but then that that leaves me as being a hippocrit as I dont believe pets should be bred to creat more pets. Thankfully even though a byb the breeder I bought my Danes from (who decived me into thinking I could show them) did know the breed and did have health testing done.
SO where does that leave me, if you can tell me that then I could maybe get a good nights sleep.     |
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| staceystange |
| Posted 3/21/2008 1:16:15 PM |
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Active: 03-13-2008
Posts: 33
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I have to agree with beaglebrat, most of the friends and people I know who have adopted dogs,puppies,kittens, and cats from the shelter say the same thing, I went to get a animal to save from death and I got all the problems of the previous owner. Many families and people want a puppy that they can train, not one with issues. I am happy to hear that there are people that want and have the time and patience to handle these animals, but many do not. I think everyone has the right to buy or resuce if they so choose. The fact of the matter is that people will do what they wish and calling them arrogant or any other such names will not help the cause of educating on shelters and kills. Being nice and explaining with dignity will. Please stop being so abrasive people and be nice to us newbies just trying to learn!
Stacey |
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