| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 2/9/2008 3:50:33 PM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6684
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Quote beaglebrat: Honestly, breeders taking 'left over' Puppies to the shelter doesn't happen very often, or those people wouldn't bother to raise dogs.
As a Dog breeder I can see both sides. I think if you are going... |
Well I can't speak to your shelters or all shelters but the two I worked at got quite a number of Puppies from both the local pet store and area breeders.
OF course that would have changed if we'd have charged a fee for them to drop them off. I would have like to seen that done. But the fear was what would happend to the pups if they didn't take them. I believed then and believe now that those shelters added to the problem. But I could be wrong.
I'm not against breeding, I couldn't work this site if I were. However I don't believe for a second dogs should be treated like hogs. I believe, dogs require hands on attention and a level of human socilization that they will not recieve living in a morton building with six or seven hundred other dogs.
We need to get control over the back yard breeders and the huge producers. That in my opinion would go a long way in helping the over all problem.
Of course THAT IS JUST MY OPINION.
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/9/2008 4:48:56 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
Posts: 859
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Quote maoseger1010: Well I can't speak to your shelters or all shelters but the two I worked at got quite a number of Puppies from both the local pet store and area breeders.
OF course that would have changed if we'd... |
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I periodically see what is in our rural County shelter (a different county than the city shelter I was talking about).
I have never seen more than 4 dogs in that shelter at one time. I have never seen a purebred EVER except one purebred Doberman puppy that had been lost and the family claimed it the next day.
Even if you take out the 'wrongness' of it, I just don't see how it could be profitable for petstores and breeders to GIVE AWAY Puppies by placing them in the shelters. Why wouldn't the petstores just return the Puppies to the breeder or broker? It wouldn't be good for business if everyone knew all they had to do was wait until a puppy was 5-6 months old and they could go get that $500-1800 puppy at the pound for $60.
I am not saying that you are lying. I am not saying that it never happens. I just don't think that is where the bulk of the shelter dogs are coming from. AT ALL.
I would agree that I think dogs should be treated like dogs and not livestock.
At the same time, I am ok with dogs being treated like dogs in a pack and not humans.I know of many people that have a medium amount of well cared for, well socialized dogs. I think that is a category I fit in, and I know of many 'decent' breeders that would be in that same category. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/9/2008 6:19:55 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 915
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According to the main puppy mill sites, they say P*tlands unsold dogs go back to the broker, to either be returned to the breeder, or are sold at a Dog auction or flea market.
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| wayne headlee |
| Posted 2/9/2008 9:58:50 PM |
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Active: 01-29-2008
Posts: 20
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yep....they send em back |
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/9/2008 10:12:50 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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I can tell you that on any given day at my shelter in PA - 50% were PB. agreed that is a high number & I have no idea why but that was it.
probably at least half of that would be very desirable, nice, good looking dogs - shih tau's, lhasa's, cockers, shepherds, beagles, st's, doxies & on & on
altho I'm not sure if this has changed but the national stats as compiled by HSUS, shelters had 30% PB's
often when there is an intake fee, people turn dogs in as stray. of course they do that regardles.
the reason pet shops dump them is that they are no longer "cute" & have grown to much. P*t*an* gets all their Puppies from the Hunte corp under contract. they are the largest puppy broker in the US. they all come from the mills, mostly Amish.
the transporters are out there selling the returns cheap as a side business in WM parking lot.
you think the Amish farmers are going to pay for a crop to be returned? think Hunte corp will pay the return transport?
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| ducktape |
| Posted 2/9/2008 10:46:06 PM |
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Active: 12-06-2007
Posts: 41
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sue
Where do you get your info? Or is it just theories? How do you know all of Hunte Puppies come from a mill? How do you know most are Amish? What do you have against the Amish? How do you know that that is where wmt parking lot Puppies come from? I think you are typing out of your rear. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/9/2008 11:29:24 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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Quote suebgone: I can tell you that on any given day at my shelter in PA - 50% were PB. agreed that is a high number & I have no idea why but that was it.
probably at least half of that would be very desirable, nice,... |
Yes I do think Hunt Corp will pay the return transport. A shipment comes into the store and a possible shipment goes back out...what's so hard to believe about that? It's not all Amish either, though I'm not discounting your experience but PA is "BIG" Amish country. I don't think the puppy mill site I'm talking about has any reason to make it up. I've also heard the Amish love those Dog auctions. |
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| kathystone |
| Posted 2/10/2008 5:42:28 AM |
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Active: 11-18-2007
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In the 70's, I was the coordinator for volunteer services to animals in the two big city shelters in Los Angeles. One of my best friends was the tech there. She would travel from shelter to shelter in the San Fernando Valley and treat the injured dogs. Most were put to sleep after 7 days waiting for the owner. On an average day, she would "bump" over 600 dogs.The city made more money on the dead dogs than on the live ones.( Look at your Dog foood bags. See meat and bone meal? Yup! That's what it was back then.) The other way the city made big bucks was selling to research. They got $100 for a big dog, which was twice the price of an adoption. As a volunteer and with the help of the citizens of LA, we passed laws to outlaw the sales of shelter dogs to research and established a spay/neuter clinic that offered low cost spay/neuter.By 1999, the number of impounded dogs had gone from an anual average of 102,000 to less than 50,000 AND the rates of adoptions went from 7% to almost 60%.
The difference between the 70's and the 90's was that breed clubs started sponsoring rescues. Many breed clubs pledged $5.00 per puppy sold to rescue. There were enough volunteers to help AND the spay/ neuter clinic made a big difference. Once I got my vet license, I did only spays/ neuters at a private clinic. It was funded by some of the animal rescue groups in CA. We averaged 12 spays and 12 neuters a day plus did low cost shot clinics in the afternoon.
I agree that the main problem is the owners but breeders have to be careful where they place their Puppies and this is nbot true of puppymills.
As an aside, there was a woman who came into the shelter one time with a litter of 12 purebred dalmation pups to be put to sleep. The reason? THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY SPOTS! The pups went to rescue and she was convinced that the problem was that her female needed to be spayed. I doubt she ever learned that dals don't get their spots until they are a few weeks old.
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 2/10/2008 7:42:30 AM |
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Forum Moderator
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6684
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Quote beaglebrat: Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I periodically see what is in our rural County shelter (a different county than the city shelter I was talking about).
I have never seen more than 4 dogs in that... |
"I am not saying that you are lying. I am not saying that it never happens. I just don't think that is where the bulk of the shelter dogs are coming from. AT ALL."
Really, sounds to me like you think I AM lying. Only I have better things to do with my life than come here and lie to people. Not that I expect you to believe me, since clearly you already think the worst of me. Which is interesting since not one time that I can remember have "I" ever attacked you. But just for the record I never said the "BULK" of dogs in a shelter come from breeders, I believe I said they add to the problem. Just because your shelter does not have them does not mean there are NO shelters that have them. I also believe I went on to clarify myself in saying "I could not speak for every shelter but only the two I worked in"
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 2/10/2008 7:43:13 AM |
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Forum Moderator
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6684
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| Quote ducktape: how is it the breeders problem that owners let their dogs go? If there wasn't demand for something, the supply would go down. |
Lets look at this another way, if a breeder is producing large numbers of dogs and shipping them to pet stores all over the US and the pet stores sell to anyone with the money. Those people then take those dogs to a shelter. How is it the breeder isn't contributing to the problem?
Compare those actions to this example....
IF a drug producer in another country sells their drugs to dealers all over the world who then sell it for young kids and most of them die because the product the producer made was tainted. Is the producer not responsible in anyway for the end result. Or are his hands washed clean because he sold his product through a middle man?
For the last time I will say, I'm not against all breeding. We need breeders, but we need breeders who produce with the aim of making great dogs and not great profit margins. Of course that is my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/10/2008 8:45:38 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Quote maoseger1010: "I am not saying that you are lying. I am not saying that it never happens. I just don't think that is where the bulk of the shelter dogs are coming from. AT ALL."
Really, sounds to me like you think... |
No, that is why I clarified. I really don't think you are lying. Do you think I am lying about there only ever being 4 dogs in our rural county shelter?
Just because there are only 4 dogs in that shelter, doesn't mean I think there are only 4 dogs in every shelter.
Maybe PA is different because it is one of the biggest puppymill States. It doesn't make sense to me why breeders and pet shops would 'dump' the dogs at shelters in stead of just selling them at auction.
I thought that puppymills were all about making money, and I didn't think they would want to lose it like that by giving Puppies and purebreds to shelters. I am not saying that it doesn't happen in that State.
I just don't think it is typical, but I don't think you are lying.
Looking at the footage from puppymill auctions, it is clear that they will SELL anything. A 3-legged-1-eye 12 year old stud Dog for $50. You know?
Of course puppymills and petstores contribute to the shelter problem anyway, because they don't offer to take the Dog back if the owner needs to get rid of it.
And Mao, I don't have a problem with you that I am aware of. In fact there was only one person that I have ever had a problem with on here, and she doesn't post on here any more. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 2/10/2008 9:25:22 AM |
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Forum Moderator
Active: 02-20-2005
Posts: 6684
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Quote beaglebrat: No, that is why I clarified. I really don't think you are lying. Do you think I am lying about there only ever being 4 dogs in our rural county shelter?
Just because there are only 4 dogs in that shelter,... |
No I don't think your lying.
I want to say I totally see your point about them not wanting to lose money as well. I have also seen some of the saddest looking dogs being sold at doggy auctions.
The Shelter admin. I worked under believed that the breeders in our area(who brought in dogs)dumped them on us because they took up space and food, that was needed for other dogs they hoped to sell. I of course am not offering that as proof, it was her speculation. But at the time I tended to agree with it.
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/10/2008 12:32:20 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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Quote ducktape: sue
Where do you get your info? Or is it just theories? How do you know all of Hunte Puppies come from a mill? How do you know most are Amish? What do you have against the Amish? How do you know... |
I get my info from being in the trenches for 15 years. how many puppy mills have you actually been in?
if you knew half as much as you think you do, you would know the majority of puppy mills are Amish & Mennonite. dogs are a crop to them since people don't smoke nearly as much anymore.
do some research on the Hunte corp.
do some research on puppy mills
use a little common sense while you're at it. no, they are not going to pay a transporter to take it back. they might TELL you that but I can tell you the transporter is out there selling those dogs themselves for the $$ - they are brokering them to JQP
BB once they are 4 or 5 months old & haven't sold - they just want rid of them as they are taking up valuable space. they are way past that fluff ball stage & looking pretty gangly so are no longer desirable |
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/10/2008 12:56:33 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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| Quote PerfectPom: Yes I do think Hunt Corp will pay the return transport. A shipment comes into the store and a possible shipment goes back out...what's so hard to believe about that? It's not all Amish either, though I'm... |
well think again. what would they do with it? if it hasn't sold in a PL it has grown & is no longer that cute little fuzz ball - so why would you thing Hunte could do any better.
now perhaps we are comparing apples & oranges here. if a shipment goes to a store & is turned down, yes it would go back - maybe!
what I was referring to was a Dog that had been there & didn't sell, that costs the store money because they can't put some cute little thing in there that they can make several hundred on.
here is a paragraph I too off one of the pages about Huntes. pay attention to what it says about grade B Puppies.
The Hunte Corporation is currently the largest puppy broker in the U.S. It is based in Goodman, Missouri. It buys Puppies from puppy mills in several Midwestern states and then sells them to pet stores all over the country, including many Petlands. Breeders either drop the Puppies off at the Hunte building or a Hunte truck goes out to pick them up. The Puppies are checked over by Hunte employees. The breeders expect to receive a certain price from Hunte depending on the breed of dog, but if Hunte decides the Puppies are not very healthy, they may offer the breeder less money. The breeders usually accept the lower price, as they have no use for the Puppies. Hunte's "Grade A" Puppies. the supposedly healthier ones, are sent to pet stores. The "Grade B" Puppies. the sicklier ones, are sold in other ways. We understand that some are sold to people who sell dogs over the Internet or through newspaper ads. Others were formerly sold at Missouri flea markets and in Canada, but now they are apparently often ending up at the huge Canton Flea Market in Texas, which sells dogs, cats and other animals by the hundreds. The Canton Animal Shelter describes its situation as "urgent" (see www.petfinder.org/shelters/TX256.html.) Puppies that are rejected by pet stores and sent back to Hunte also fall into this "Grade B" category and are disposed of in the same way |
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/10/2008 12:59:51 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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BB I got 23 dogs in one nite from a mill that the state had shut down - over 600 dogs. one poor Beagle was missing an ear & his tail. poor thing was so terrified. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/10/2008 2:20:14 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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Quote suebgone: well think again. what would they do with it? if it hasn't sold in a PL it has grown & is no longer that cute little fuzz ball - so why would you thing Hunte could do any better.
now perhaps we... |
Quote: well think again. what would they do with it?
Are you insinuating I hadn't thunk the last time around, ya think??
You are very "hung" up on the appearance of the puppy aspect. Imo some breeds don't even show any potential until you can see them after 6 months, which doesn't even factor into my assertion that PL's dogs go back to the broker who transports back to breeder, auction or flea market.
None of those places requires the Dog to be cute!
You really believe Hunte tells them to just take 'em to the shelter? How many times do you think a different employee could come in and claim to have a stray at my humane society? Hunte doesn't even make that much money on a puppy, they sell them for dirt cheap! I do trust a site that has done undercover and investigative work. It's certainly not all Amish. There is a front page story in our paper today on a caucasion miller who has 1,000 dogs right here in my state. If I find the correct link I will post it here if that is ok.
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/10/2008 2:22:58 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 915
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ooops Amish are caucasion. I meant he is not Amish and used to be a cattle rancher. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/10/2008 5:33:09 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 915
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http://www.madison.com/dev/wsj/topstories/271798
Here is the link to the puppymill story in my state. The guy claims he invented the mini St. Bernard but won't give his secrets away this time. Says word got out with the Puggle and then everyone was churning them out. Interesting read. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 2/10/2008 9:17:56 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
Posts: 3050
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Not ever one is a good parent, nor is every human the perfect picture of humanity, so we have what seems like people with out souls.
Not all dogs no matter how well or not so well bred are going to be good pets, some have issues just like some people have issues and can not be members of society, some dogs are made that way by the people mentioned above, some dogs suffer because they just cant be housetrained, or dont have the mental ability to be trained past their own stubborness.
Many people get dogs based on looks rather than traits these things are why i feel that there are pure bred shelter dogs, I have never pulled a pure bred that didnt have some sort of issue, some are things pet lovers like us would take in stride.
I personally know two breeders that supply our local stores, the pups come back to be put into breeding stock if for some reason they dont sell, its also what the people i worked for managing a large pet store did, 90 percent of the Puppies there where from their own kennel, the consignment pups where marked down in attempt to sell them but if they did not sell, then they where brought home to be put into the kennel.
Its hard looking back that as much as i loved animals i could accept that as just the way things where and i didnt know any different with my mom and most of the people i know being breeders. i have learned allot in the past few years and evolved quite a bit.
Im not saying it doesn happen, anything can happen, just me being on the front lines i have never seen a puppy from a store be taken to the shelter, it was rare that we had Puppies that didnt sell almost as soon as they where ready, then again we didnt aske 5 prices for them either.
being in retail, its hard to take a complete loss like that, food, shots and care, so most really try to sell the Puppies. but some place like hunt group they are an expence and i can see where they could be just tossed from them.
Rescues eat up pure breds, so with the exception of the over bred breeds you hardly have a chance to adopt one from the shelter if you are lucky enough to find one, I believe from what i have seen working in the shelters in Ga that its pits, pit mixes and other large mixes that no one wants that wind up being pts, unless a pure bred has some major issues, or is a black lab, its pretty much not going to stay in the shelter here. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 2/10/2008 9:21:52 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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but where theres a pup, Dog or cat, horse ect in the shelter there is always a breeder somewhere behind that, but if the person cares so little to take a Dog to the shelter, then Ill bet a dollar that the person didnt make any effort to contact the breeder or place the dog.
If there was a way to make spay and neuter manditory and if you wanted to breed, you had to have a licence, and you couldnt do more than x amount of dogs, then that would just about solve all the problems we have spoken of.
But thats a huge loss of income for many people, and good income is hard to come by so i dont see that happening no more than the stopping of millions of people dying of cigs and beer.
After all, the saying money is the root of all evil didnt come from no where.
Supply and demand, the most selfish thing in the world sometimes. |
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