| christinadorris |
| Posted 2/6/2008 9:56:06 PM |
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Active: 11-05-2007
Posts: 49
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I just want to know what different people would define a puppy mill as. What is a Puppy Mill to you? |
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| wayne headlee |
| Posted 2/7/2008 1:29:02 AM |
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Active: 01-29-2008
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the kinda breeders who dont take care of there animals there just in it for the money ten dogs or a thousand they go out and scoop the dead dogs but not the poop no food no medicine usually no liscense not to say that some arent liscensed but i think a puppy mill is the kinda place that gives good breeders a bad name kinda place where every Dog lives in dirt because the people just dont care about bettering the lives of their animals only themselves a place where nothing new is bought for the animals where the animals get the bare minimum a dirt run a blue plastic barrel a tarp for a roof and the cheapest Dog food u can get not to mention they got wire cages and Puppies feet stuck in em ... ...but i will say the Dog biz is not easy and most are doing what they can with what they got its just a shame ...i think a Dog tied to a tree has a better life |
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| kathystone |
| Posted 2/7/2008 3:37:24 AM |
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Active: 11-18-2007
Posts: 127
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A Puppy Mill is a place where female dogs are bred every time they come into heat.I put the people who are owners of a few dogs in that class when they are breeding dogs for the money instread of for the betterment of the breed.
Contrary to what many people think, Many Puppy Mils are USDA licensed "breeding Kennels". The minimum space required by USDA is the length of the Dog plus half of the length, by the width of the Dog plus half the width of the dog. So a Dog that is 12 inches long by 4 inches wide would be in a "legal" cage if that cage is 18 inches long and 6 inches wide.The USDA prefers wire bottomed cages for sanitary reasons. The excretement falls through to a shelf where it can be hosed down.
Most of these types of kennels have registered dogs that are only handled when they are taken out of their cage to be put in with a male. Most of them do a decent job of feeding and watering the dogs but there is no socialization,no exercise time out of the cage, no real life. The majority of them do vaccinate their dogs for distemper, parvo, and hepatitis and most brucellosis check their dogs when they first get them. Again, if you are raising pups and the mother is not fed decent( notice I did not say WELL) there will be no pups.
By the time the females are 4-5 years old, their body is worn out. Most puppymills do not do dental care. The rotten teeth cause all sorts of infection in the body and the Dog is discarded like so much used trash.
Here's the catch 22....Most people want to buy a puppy. So there is a market for Puppies. Where there is a market, there will bve those who will fill the need at the least cost.That is why you see 40 pound yorkies( the seller let me have him for half price because he was oversize.)dogs who are not even close to breed standard, and dogs with health and physical problems out in the world.
I knew a woman who had some of the top show dogs in the country. They were all AKC champions and she commanded top dollar for her pups. She had 47 different breeds of dogs in 4x20 foot Dog runs with access to a heated and airconditioned kennel building. Once the female gained their championship, she put them on the assembly line mto mass produce Puppies. When they stopped producing, she put them to sleep. Yes, the pups were first Quality. But how is this any different than the small cages with the pathetic little dogs bearing litter after litter of pet shop pups?
Just my opinion. Thanks for asking. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/7/2008 9:35:07 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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I would also agree with everyone that it is the worst of the worst breeders. They don't groom or give medical attention, even when desperately needed. True puppy mills breed them until they die and breed dogs they know have medical problems and just don't care.
Kathystone-- A few of my friends attended a national AKC breeder symposium. There is a new theory that it may be better for a bitch to be bred every heat cycle and then be 'done' and spayed. There is less risk of pyometria. Eggs are also damaged with every heat cycle regardless of the bitch is bred or not.
You don't have to agree with it, but it is a theory that many vets are starting to have. I think the way it is intended you would just do 2-4 consecutive litters and then the girl is spayed.
Though I know that several people took it to mean, you breed them every heat until they stop producing regular litter size. As in it's ok to breed them as long as they are having larger litters, but when they start having litters of 1-3 that is the sign they are done. Which I think would be very rough on a mother.
Old methods are back to back and then skip a heat, or every other heat, or once a year. Every girl is different though. Breeding 1x per year wouldn't work if the girl only comes in 1x per year.
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/7/2008 10:16:33 AM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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I thought I would clarify too. As of right now I don't agree with breeding a girl every heat cycle, but I don't know... maybe it is my thinking that is wrong.
I wish I would have attended the breeder symposium and I am very much thinking about attending the one being held in Columbus Ohio in April, even though it is a 6 hour drive. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/7/2008 12:09:32 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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| Quote kathystone: A Puppy Mill is a place where female dogs are bred every time they come into heat.I put the people who are owners of a few dogs in that class when they are breeding dogs for the money instread of for the... |
 to the site. I am enjoying your perspective. A 40 pound Yorkie?!? The most I have heard of or seen pictures of is close to 20.
I got my yorkie from a pet store at 4 months old. She didn't have difficulty with potty training, socialization problems or health issues. Looks like she will be in the 6 lb range.
I went to that site where you can have them check on the breeders status and they said nothing came back. When doing a google search I found some info on the breeder and broker but my computer was unable to read it in that format. I am planning to get a new laptop soon. Is it possible thier USDA kennel was half way decent since she doesn't seem to have issues?
Op do a google search for puppy mills...you will see what they are  |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/7/2008 12:24:36 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Quote PerfectPom: to the site. I am enjoying your perspective. A 40 pound Yorkie?!? The most I have heard of or seen pictures of is close to 20.
I got my yorkie from a pet store at 4 months old. She didn't... |
I think another objection to breeders that sell to pet stores is that they just don't care about who their Puppies go to, or if they wind up dead in shelters.
I know and have records of every person that my Puppies have went to, and since micro-chipping has been readily available, my Puppies have left chipped for the past 5 years.
I have a 4 page puppy contract, in it says about 3 times to contact me with problems, and if the person can no longer keep the puppy I want to know, and under no circumstances do I want my puppy to go to a shelter or rescue.
People who sell to brokers and pet shops, just don't care. They have no control over who or where the Puppies go or if they die in a shelter.
I don't think too many pet stores turn away people with money, even if they don't think they are a good home. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/7/2008 12:43:51 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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Quote beaglebrat: I think another objection to breeders that sell to pet stores is that they just don't care about who their Puppies go to, or if they wind up dead in shelters.
I know and have records of every person... |
The thing is any other kind of breeder COULD be just as bad. Like Kathy mentioned even a show breeder. The breeder of my Pom asked for you to tell something about yourself when first inquiring on a Dog but really had no more questions for me after that. Although she did go over her contract, health issues etc. extensively.
She also offered an AKC limited registration or full registration price on every puppy which isn't correct. There were other red flags, but she was the best breeder I could find in my state that had any Puppies that looked like a good rep of the breed and Peanut has been 100% healthy.
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| christinadorris |
| Posted 2/7/2008 2:39:44 PM |
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Active: 11-05-2007
Posts: 49
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PerfectPom- I know what different sites say a puppy mill is. I was wanting to know several perspectives from individuals on here. Thanks you though. The lines between what is and what is not a Puppy mill are very vague. I like to hear different views on stuff. |
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| christinadorris |
| Posted 2/7/2008 2:53:57 PM |
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Active: 11-05-2007
Posts: 49
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I think a puppy mill is a place that keeps their animals in an unclean environment. They have very small pens. They do not care about hereditary defects. They breed early and often. Most of their sales is to brokers and not to individuals. When we were starting up, a USDA inspector came and told us the way to do things. He told us to make tiny outdoor pens with a tarp and a doghouse. He thought our buildings would be too hard to get heated. There is no need in my mind for the entire building to be heated as long as the dogs and Puppies can stay warm. We decided that there was no need to be USDA licensed anyway because we wouldn't be selling to brokers. |
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| CannonFarms |
| Posted 2/7/2008 4:40:38 PM |
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Active: 08-13-2006
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this is how i look at breeders,
You have your show breeders, pricey but rightfully so, though not guaranteed everything is going to be all roses, its usually the best path to go.
Hobby breeders: these are those that may on occasion produce a show puppy, the dogs are quality most of the time and healthy. this is the more affordable choice for many people.
You have the back yard breeders, whom just put to pure breed dogs together with little regards of the out come, usually these Puppies have the bulk of the problems, but if your careful you can get a good puppy for a reasonable price, one of the more common ways people obtain a puppy.
Commercial breeders, these breeders have several types of dogs, often exceeding a 100 dogs. They are kept clean, fed well, vetted. Their purpose is to reproduce and thats about it. Most are sold to the more "reputable" pet stores or online.
Millers are the horror seens you see off animal planet, they are in filth, have very little care, they produce till they cant anymore then are killed, defects are given no regard.
Most people dont agree that there is a difference between millers and commercial breeders, but to me theres a world of difference in level of care and concern, even though the goals are the same, to make money.
Not every one sees dogs as loving companions, they see them like cows or goats, something to make a profit off of. When i bred dogs I bred several breeds, they where decent reps of the breeds, some excellent, it at the time was a way for me to care for my kids being a single mom, I dont look at things that way anymore, I can understand those that do. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/7/2008 7:17:54 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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| Quote PerfectPom: The thing is any other kind of breeder COULD be just as bad. Like Kathy mentioned even a show breeder. The breeder of my Pom asked for you to tell something about yourself when first inquiring on a dog... |
I agree every breeder has different standards. I also offer 'most' of my Puppies with either full or limited registration and I consider the limited registration and spay/neuter agreement to be a discount to people just looking for pets. I ask even more questions to those interested in breeding. About 90% of my Puppies are sold as pets anyway.
My thinking though, is that the worst of my Champion Sired Puppies are better than most of the 'pick Puppies. from other people's average bred litters.
At 8 weeks I don't have too many Puppies with truly 'disqualifying faults'. Those that do, are only sold as pets and I recommend people wanting dogs for breeding to other Puppies or to wait for a later litter.
That doesn't mean they are all my Puppies are 'show quality', but most DO have the pedigree to be a good addition to a breeding program. That is just how I feel about it. |
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/7/2008 8:45:48 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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ND the reason for that is, in the states that do require kennel licensing of breeders, they classify them as a commercial kennel. that is determined by the number of dogs being housed on the property during the year.
as for a "hobby" breeder, that would be what you are calling a "show" breeder. that is the term used by AKC to describe reputable breeders
as for the USDA licensing - anyone who sells Puppies wholesale ( for resale ) must be USDA licensed.
they give shots & test for brucelosis??
hmmm never found one of those. |
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| ducktape |
| Posted 2/8/2008 3:00:35 PM |
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Active: 12-06-2007
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I don't see a big problem with selling dogs for a profit. In no way do I accept those that are mean to their dogs or don't keep them clean. I also think you shouldn't breed dogs with problems. Who says it is bad to make money selling Puppies to people that want to buy Puppies. |
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| suebgone |
| Posted 2/8/2008 5:07:41 PM |
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Active: 01-10-2006
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| Quote ducktape: I don't see a big problem with selling dogs for a profit. In no way do I accept those that are mean to their dogs or don't keep them clean. I also think you shouldn't breed dogs with problems. Who says... |
well then how 'bout if you spend a month at a shelter killing dogs that there are no homes for.
6 million a year is a lot of pets slaughtered |
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| ducktape |
| Posted 2/8/2008 11:53:58 PM |
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Active: 12-06-2007
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how is it the breeders problem that owners let their dogs go? If there wasn't demand for something, the supply would go down. |
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| maoseger1010 |
| Posted 2/9/2008 11:48:14 AM |
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Forum Moderator
 
Active: 02-20-2005
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| Quote ducktape: how is it the breeders problem that owners let their dogs go? If there wasn't demand for something, the supply would go down. |
Actually breeders contribute to the problem, as some of them take the dogs they don't sell to shelters.
In the last eight years nearly 42 million dogs have been put to death. Since dogs skins are not used, since we don't eat their meat, since there is nothing we take from them when they are dead, Why is it ok to raise them to die? If people want to raise something just for profit raise pigs or cattle. At least their deaths provide food. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/9/2008 2:00:18 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
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They probably won't be taking them to our Humane Society. Costs $50 now to surrender an animal. People should be breeding because they have a love for the breed and want to uphold the standard, not to make money. |
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| beaglebrat |
| Posted 2/9/2008 2:09:37 PM |
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Active: 05-01-2006
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Quote maoseger1010: Actually breeders contribute to the problem, as some of them take the dogs they don't sell to shelters.
In the last eight years nearly 42 million dogs have been put to death. Since dogs skins are... |
Honestly, breeders taking 'left over' Puppies to the shelter doesn't happen very often, or those people wouldn't bother to raise dogs.
As a Dog breeder I can see both sides. I think if you are going to raise dogs, you should be committed to them for life and take them back for life.
At the same time I do see ducktapes point. How is it the breeder's fault if the family never contacts them, and takes the Dog directly to a shelter?
Very few breeders, and I don't know of any GREAT breeders that would take dogs to kill shelters. I have heard of rescues taking purebred dogs, because they can also profit on them-- and when I had an adult Dog on the classifieds of petfinder I was contacted by rescues asking me if I would like them to take the dog. I did not, I just found a good loving permanent home for her.
75% of the dogs in shelters (by their own admission) are mixes. If you take away Pittbulls, Labs, and Beagles, that number again drops drastically.
I don't think the mixes in kills shelters are the little designer mixes either, unless they have bad health or behavioral problems. In large cities, it is almost impossible to adopt a healthy little dog. They are gone before people get there.
IN MY OPINION, the vast majority of dogs dying in shelters are the 3 over-bred purebreds I have mentioned, or un-intentional, oops litter mixes produced not by breeders, but by irresponsible pet owners.
The last time visited the county kill shelter in the city closest to us, there were NO OTHER dogs in the shelter except pits/pit-mixes and a lone beagle. |
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| PerfectPom |
| Posted 2/9/2008 2:22:27 PM |
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Active: 04-04-2007
Posts: 1038
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Uh-huh the small dogs go really, really fast around here or go to rescues. You would be hard pressed to even find one at our Humane Society. I agree there has to be a number of rescues in it for the money they can make, just like a less than steller breeder. |
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